Sinners (2025)

[Ruin Explorer]

That wouldn't preclude him from being in Ireland during years of plantations, dispossessions, and uprisings before traveling to America. Remmick's statements may erroneously conflate religious conversion with dispossessions a bit since Ireland generally wasn't converted to Christianity by invaders or force, but complaints about the dispossession of land and imposition of culture by an invader would still track.

Sure, but my point is that they could have drawn that line to the famines, to the Easter Uprising, or further back to Cromwell etc., and instead they drew a much more vampire-ish line to establish Remmick as truly ancient. I presume he was there and given his behaviour pattern had a good time in the 1600s through 1800s though.

Also and this is an actual question because my knowledge of post-Roman Empire, pre-Norse Ireland is... limited at best... do we actually know from historical and archaeological sources that Ireland wasn't converted by force? I know that's the story that's told, but that's a different thing to what's supported by the evidence. I tried to look it up but the sources I can easily find online are basically [SCENE DELETED] between Patrick arriving in Ireland and Ireland being gloriously unified in Christianity hundreds of years later!

I don't think it's erroneous conflation on the part of the writers, but perhaps in Remmick's mind these things are the same/interrelated, and as a semi-Fey being he might not see the Church as being a peaceful as a human of that era and place might.

Plus if we're being real there's a lot of colonialism that doesn't directly involve physical violence but is still troubling and significant, and a lot of that revolves around religious conversion and cultural destruction.

 

[Mannahnin]

Also and this is an actual question because my knowledge of post-Roman Empire, pre-Norse Ireland is... limited at best... do we actually know from historical and archaeological sources that Ireland wasn't converted by force? I know that's the story that's told, but that's a different thing to what's supported by the evidence. I tried to look it up but the sources I can easily find online are basically [SCENE DELETED] between Patrick arriving in Ireland and Ireland being gloriously unified in Christianity hundreds of years later!

Yes. It was a process that took place over several centuries, and we have surviving period texts (such as the Uraicecht Becc and Bretha Crólige) showing that, for example, druids retained legal rights and status, though much diminished, until about 500 years after Patrick. Christianity became the majority religion around 200 years after Patrick, which is when the first really exaggerated hagiography (Patrick of Miurchu's Life of St. Patrick) appears, with the first claims of him righteously kicking druid backside. Though that one pales beside the tales in Jocelyn of Furness' 12th century hagiography (the one which pinched the story of driving out the venomous snakes and toads and reptiles from St. Columba's hagiography, for example).

I don't think it's erroneous conflation on the part of the writers, but perhaps in Remmick's mind these things are the same/interrelated, and as a semi-Fey being he might not see the Church as being a peaceful as a human of that era and place might.

Plus if we're being real there's a lot of colonialism that doesn't directly involve physical violence but is still troubling and significant, and a lot of that revolves around religious conversion and cultural destruction.

Yes, though Remmick's monologue on conversion did strike me a little odd, because that attitude towards the conversion, is to my perception, relatively modern. Echoing 20th century neopagan and popular misconceptions about the church and some bad historic takes I grew up with in the neopagan community, before we had better scholarship.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Yes. It was a process that took place over several centuries, and we have surviving period texts (such as the Uraicecht Becc and Bretha Crólige showing that, for example, druids retained legal rights and status (though much diminished) until about 500 years after Patrick. Christianity became the majority religion around 200 years after Patrick, which is when the first really exaggerated hagiography (Patrick of Miurchu's Life of St. Patrick) appears, with the first claims of him righteously kicking druid backside. (Though that one pales beside the tales in Jocelyn of Furness' 12th century hagiography, the one which pinched the story of driving out the venomous snakes and toads and reptiles from St. Columba's hagiography, for example).

Thank you, this is actually really helpful!

Yes, though Remmick's monologue on conversion did strike me a little odd, because that attitude towards the conversion, is to my perception, relatively modern. Echoing 20th century neopagan and popular misconceptions about the church and some bad historic takes I grew up with in the neopagan community, before we had better scholarship.

I think what it's actually echoing is probably the writer/director's attitudes towards mostly-19th and 20th-century Christian conversion in Africa and the developing world, which whilst mostly technically "non-violent" and "not by force" has been... deeply problematic and corrosive of local cultures and traditions. I doubt Coogler is much into neopaganism or the like - he doesn't seem to move in those circles. The attitude is perhaps modern but I think Remmick being a Fey creature excuses that in this specific case (because he's bound to take conversion more personally!).

 

[Mannahnin]

I think what it's actually echoing is probably the writer/director's attitudes towards mostly-19th and 20th-century Christian conversion in Africa and the developing world, which whilst mostly technically "non-violent" and "not by force" has been... deeply problematic and corrosive of local cultures and traditions. I doubt Coogler is much into neopaganism or the like - he doesn't seem to move in those circles. The attitude is perhaps modern but I think Remmick being a Fey creature excuses that in this specific case (because he's bound to take conversion more personally!).

Ah, that being an intended parallel to more modern African coerced conversion makes sense. When he talks about it in the movie it set my "bad history" meter off a bit. It reminded me of 20th century ahistorical tropes about "the burning times" and that the snakes from Jocelyn's hagiography were actually a metaphor for druids (which they definitely weren't; that whole misconception originates from one rando's ignorant theory quoted in Carson Evans-Wentz's 1911 The Fairy Faith in Celtic Countries).

I've seen this "fey creature" take elsewhere on social media, but could you explain that a bit more? I don't see any resemblance between him and the Aos Si or daoine sídhe.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I've seen this "fey creature" take elsewhere on social media, but could you explain that a bit more? I don't see any resemblance between him and the Aos Si or daoine sídhe.

I can't remember the exact dialogue but some combination of the narrator and Remmick himself seem to explicitly outline that he (and seemingly all vampires) are Fey beings (in at least a D&D sense, albeit they might be more Shadowfell than Feywild!), and that's why they're drawn to the music here, not just people/blood. The Africa-Ireland connection is also a bit clearer if you note the narrator drawing parallels between Griots in Western Africa and Filidh in "ancient Ireland", which I think brings us back to the conversion commentary.

I don't think it's intended to be "mythologically accurate" or anything, I think it's intended to be a new(ish) twist that deepens the lore like the hive-mind deal.

 

[Mannahnin]

I can't remember the exact dialogue but some combination of the narrator and Remmick himself seem to explicitly outline that he (and seemingly all vampires) are Fey beings (in at least a D&D sense, albeit they might be more Shadowfell than Feywild!), and that's why they're drawn to the music here, not just people/blood. The Africa-Ireland connection is also a bit clearer if you note the narrator drawing parallels between Griots in Western Africa and Filidh in "ancient Ireland", which I think brings us back to the conversion commentary.

I don't think it's intended to be "mythologically accurate" or anything, I think it's intended to be a new(ish) twist that deepens the lore like the hive-mind deal.

Absolutely the opening narration established a mythological/magical connection between musical and poetic traditions in Africa, Ireland, and elsewhere. It references Filidh, although they were poets and seers rather than musicians (musicians were substantially lower-rank/class under the Brehon laws) but it's common for people to (usually mistakenly) conflate Filidh with musicians or bards. There are also instances in Irish myth/cosmology of music being associated with magic. Whether that's Amergin, or a master harper being one who was capable of playing the three noble strains- the Goltraí which incited tears, the Geantraí which incited laughter, and the Suantraí which lulled people into slumber.

I took Remmick being drawn to the music and magic just as him being supernaturally sensitive. And obviously for an immortal there's an additional draw to Sammy being able to conjure up the spirits of people from the past. Imagine the opportunity for Remmick to see his deceased loved ones again! Vampires being into music is a common concept (see Only Lovers Left Alive, for example, or The Vampire Lestat, for that matter), and makes sense. In times past people making music themselves was a standard form of entertainment, and if you've got centuries to practice...

I'm still not quite grasping the fey connection, though. Maybe it's something from D&D lore that you're aware of and I'm not. I'm coming at this primarily from an Irish mythology/cosmology standpoint.

 

[chuckdee]

Nothing to contribute other than to say I'm enjoying this conversation about Remmick.

That's one of the things I really love about the movie... Eben though it's not supposed to be franchise material,there are several other stories that are compelling and I'd love to see explored - Chocktaw vampire hunters, the twins in the war, the twins in Chicago, what happened in between the end of the movie and the epilogue, Remmicks story, and more