D&D 5E Need help for character build

DND_Reborn · May 14, 2019

One of the players at our table wants to make a necromancer, to make those that have committed atrocities pay for their offenses--and even death cannot free them from making their payments. BUT... our DM says that won't really work because he would only be animating a dead body, the "soul" has moved on and thus the offenders would not even be aware that they are being punished. Also, walking around with undead servants is not something "good" folk would tolerate normally.

So, I thought maybe there was a way his character could enchant the bad guys so they could serve or something. At higher levels something like Geas would be great I think, but I wanted to pick everyones' brains for other ideas to help him out. We don't use homebrew classes or archetypes, but house-rules for published ones are welcomed.

Suggestions any one?

TwoSix · May 14, 2019

The problem is that the concept (bring the dead back to unlife against their will) violates the 5e paradigm for how resurrection, undeath, and souls work. Even True Resurrection, a 9th level spell, can't bring a soul back against its will.

Fundamentally, this isn't a "find a new trick in the PHB" issue, this is an issue for the DM to make a world-building decision on how they want souls to work within their game world, and then decide on a proper resource cost for that ability.

If I were the DM, I wouldn't really tie it into character building resources; I'd make it a special ritual only that character could do, and require some kind of "quest" reagents to work, something tied to the soul the PC wants to damn into unlife.

Dausuul · May 14, 2019

TwoSix said:
The problem is that the concept (bring the dead back to unlife against their will) violates the 5e paradigm for how resurrection, undeath, and souls work. Even True Resurrection, a 9th level spell, can't bring a soul back against its will.

It violates how resurrection works; it does not violate how undeath works. Dead souls can be turned into undead against their will.

Here's one way of doing it: Cast feeblemind on a wraith, then follow it up with Command Undead. The wraith can then turn the necromancer's victims into specters; a specter is specifically described in the Monster Manual as being a spirit that was prevented from passing to the afterlife.

However, you can't pull this stunt until 15th level, so it's likely to be more aspirational than practical.

TwoSix · May 14, 2019

Dausuul said:
It violates how resurrection works; it does not violate how undeath works. Dead souls can be turned into undead against their will.

Here's one way of doing it: Cast feeblemind on a wraith, then follow it up with Command Undead. The wraith can then turn the necromancer's victims into specters; a specter is specifically described in the Monster Manual as being a spirit that was prevented from passing to the afterlife.

However, you can't pull this stunt until 15th level, so it's likely to be more aspirational than practical.

Fair enough. It can't be done using only player facing resources, it requires interaction with the Monster Manual to make work.

I still think it's better for the game for the DM to simply define their game world in a way that the concept can fit, rather than to justify the concept with Tippyverse style contortions of monster and spell interactions. That way leads to Pun-pun.

Dausuul · May 14, 2019

TwoSix said:
Fair enough. It can't be done using only player facing resources, it requires interaction with the Monster Manual to make work.

I still think it's better for the game for the DM to simply define their game world in a way that the concept can fit, rather than to justify the concept with Tippyverse style contortions of monster and spell interactions. That way leads to Pun-pun.

The main point I wanted to make was that the "laws of magic" in D&D do allow for the binding of dead souls against their will. Mind-blasting and enslaving a wraith is a roundabout way to get there (though I don't think it ventures into Tippyverse territory; it's a reasonable application of the tools available to a 15th-level necromancer), but it shows that it doesn't require a change to anything fundamental about the D&D cosmos.

I do agree with you that it would be better to work out a specific solution with the DM. You wouldn't need a custom subclass or anything, just a homebrewed spell would be enough.

Dausuul · May 14, 2019

Another option, if you want "pure PHB," is simply to transform your victims into wights with create undead. Again, you cannot do this before 15th level, and whether a wight retains its soul is an open question. Here are the relevant bits from the SRD description of wights:

5E SRD said:
The word "wight" meant "person" in days of yore, but the name now refers to evil undead who were once mortals driven by dark desire and great vanity. When death stills such a creature's heart and snuffs its living breath, its spirit cries out to the demon lord Orcus or some vile god of the underworld for a reprieve: undeath in return for eternal war on the living. If a dark power answers the call, the spirit is granted undeath so that it can pursue its own malevolent agenda. Wights possess the memories and drives of their formerly living selves.

...Neither dead nor alive, a wight exists in a transitional state between one world and the next. The bright spark it possessed in life is gone, and in its place is a yearning to consume that spark in all living things.

The spirit crying out to Orcus on death certainly sounds like a soul being sent back into an undead form. On the other hand, "the bright spark it possessed in life" is gone--does that refer to the soul, or to the emotional qualities of living creatures? It's up to the DM.

VitiumHK · May 15, 2019

The DM and said player need to talk outside game about possible character concepts.

As a forever DM, I try to work with my players when it comes to the RP aspect of the campaign. It's fun to make side quests or new plot hooks.

shadowoflameth · May 23, 2019

Make him wait until he can use wish. Then he doesn't have limitations. The effect that he wishes for just instantly happens. You could also do it as a cleric with Divine intervention. In a magical fantasy world, you can find a way.

shadowoflameth · May 23, 2019

On the Role playing side, you could also have quests using speak with the dead where your character tries to persuade them to willingness to come back.

Apryl447 · May 30, 2019

Fundamentally, this isn't a "find a new trick in the PHB" issue, this is an issue for the DM to make a world-building decision on how they want souls to work within their game world, and then decide on a proper resource cost for that ability.

If I were the DM, I wouldn't really tie it into character building resources; I'd make it a special ritual only that character could do, and require some kind of "quest" reagents to work, something tied to the soul the PC wants to damn into unlife. vidmate

D&D 5E Need help for character build

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