Favourite D&D edition that’s not 5E

Favourite D&D Edition

  • OD&D

    Votes: 18 6.1%
  • AD&D 1E

    Votes: 42 14.3%
  • AD&D 2E

    Votes: 72 24.6%
  • D&D 3E/3.5

    Votes: 79 27.0%
  • D&D 4E

    Votes: 73 24.9%
  • Other (not 5E)

    Votes: 9 3.1%

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I'll agree on the easier arithmetic. I'm not sure about what you mean by "swingy" - if it's really an attack/defence treadmill then the "swinginess" is preserved just the same.
With lower attack bonuses, the result on the d20 has a greater impact on the result, proportional to the modifier. I suppose if the treadmill keeps perfect lockstep with your progression and you never fight anything outside of the appropriate challenge for your level there is no difference on swinginess, but in actual play no game is really like that.

This just leads back to the discussion about minions and swarms. In 4e I had more combats, and more interesting combats, involving giant hordes of weaker enemies than I ever did in AD&D or Rolemaster.
I may have missed that part of the conversation. Yeah, minions and hordes are great! The problem is, in an accuracy treadmill, a swarm or minion still needs to be tailored to a specific level of challenge. So, while the horde of low level enemies thing is doable with minions, you have to pick the right minions for the right party, which either means making a ton of different stat sets for each type of enemy at different levels, or accept that certain enemy types are just not going to be relevant at certain levels.
 
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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Unless you have save:1/2 AEs flying around at high levels, then the hordes get auto-killed. It's more dramatic, since volleys from said hordes will also be quickly fatal, but it's still problematic.
No doubt! Like I said, the survivability treadmill is not without its drawbacks, they’re just drawbacks I personally find less irksome than the drawbacks of the accuracy treadmill.

I mean, ultimately I prefer horizontal advancement over vertical advancement anyway. I’ll take a system where leveling up gives you a cool new power over one where leveling up gives you a simple numerical bonus any day of the week. But for better or worse, vertical advancement is a core part of the D&D experience. Heck, even within bounded accuracy there’s a small amount of vertical advancement. But in small amounts it doesn’t feel like as much of a treadmill, and feel is often more important than the statistical reality in game design. I’d love to see D&D with a much flatter advancement curve, for HP and damage as well as AC and attack bonus. Keep the numbers small and focus on advancement by way of expanding options. More spells, more maneuvers, more skill perks, less ballooning of stats.
 

pemerton

Legend
back to the treadmill illusion, as those minions and swarms will be of about the party's level, again.
I think I'm missing the illusion. Who is being deceived about what?

The problem is, in an accuracy treadmill, a swarm or minion still needs to be tailored to a specific level of challenge. So, while the horde of low level enemies thing is doable with minions, you have to pick the right minions for the right party, which either means making a ton of different stat sets for each type of enemy at different levels, or accept that certain enemy types are just not going to be relevant at certain levels.
With a level tolerance of (say) +/-3, I'm not sure it's a ton.

But I think it's clear that 4e - as set out in the "tiers of play" in the PHB and DMG - assumes that the content of the fiction will steadily be changing as the game progresses. So it absolutely takes for granted that, at epic tier, we're done with keeping count of individual goblins.

EDIT: I think one effect of the 4e approach is that it removes much of the wargame aspect of the system. You can't just allocate "points" and then build figures/armies to compete against one another and see what the resulting fiction is. You need to have some prior conception of the fiction - eg these PCs are mid-paragon tier, and so goblins are threats only in large numbers - before you can build the right figures/armies (eg a "swarm" of goblin skirmishers that, as a minor action, can "kill" an adjacent goblin minion to heal).
 
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Harzel

Adventurer
Well that's weird. I made a post. Aldarc quoted the post. And then the text disappeared. I didn't even think you could have a blank post. If Aldarc has some strange voodoo magic going on, it's be nice to know ;)

You must have missed the memo. ENWorld now uses Vancian posts - quote it once and *poof*, it's gone. If you want two people to be able to quote you, you have to post the same thing twice.:D
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I think I'm missing the illusion. Who is being deceived about what?
Clearly, it's a good illusion, if even you are missing it! ;)

Maybe a hypothetical non-illusory treadmill would help:
[Sblock]
Bob, a veteran (1) fighter in service to the local lord(9), Bert, an apprentice (1) thief in service to the guildmaster (10), Robin a sorceress's (9) apprentice (1) who just mastered Sleep, and Robere a novitiate (1) sent by the high priest (9), are brought together to perform missions to protect their town. First they route a gang of bandits(1HD), saving a merchant(expert3) who gives them a reward(100gp) that they use to buy Cure Light Wounds potions when they drop Robere off at the temple on the way home. They all train up to (2). Next they head out to clear a haunted crypt, facing zombies (2HD), which Bob recognizes as casualties of that battle he was in (veteran, remember), meaning, the DM explains through high-INT Robin, that they must have been recently animated by an evil Necromancer(10). Sleep and backstab do nothing, so Robin casts magic missiles and Bert sticks to his sling while Bob fights and Robere Turns their way to victory. Bert gets them past a fiendish(tm) trap (built by Ginko the Fiendish, kobold expert5) to confront the necromancer(10), who casts Heightened Greater Improved Sleep(5) on them and escapes. They gather up what treasure the necromancer didn't want - plenty of armor & weapons for Bob, Bert & Robere - return to town, on the way, they save Bob's older brother, Rob(commoner4) from orc raiders (warrior3). They report back to their respective mentors and train up to (3), Robin learns Lesser Improved Sleep, and can now cast two magic missiles, Robere now casts Cure Moderate Wounds.
<br>
[Sblock]<br>
Bob, a fighter (3) in service to the local lord(11), Bert, a thief (3) in service to the guildmaster (12),  Robin a wizards (11) apprentice (3)  who just mastered Lesser Improved Sleep, and Robere a cleric  (3) sent by the high priest (11), are brought together to perform missions to protect their town.  First they route a gang of Bandits(the unofficial NPC Class 3), saving a merchant(expert5) who gives them a reward(200gp) that they use to buy Cure Moderate Wounds potions when they drop Robere off at the temple on the way home.  They all train up to (4).  Next they head out to clear a haunted crypt, facing zombies (2HD+2 levels of Barbarian), which Bob recognizes as casualties of a recent skirmish,  meaning, the DM explains through high-INT Robin, that they must have been recently animated by an evil wizard(12).  Sleep and backstab do nothing, so Robin casts magic missiles and Bert sticks to his sling while Bob fights and Robere Turns their way to victory.  Bert gets them past a fiendish(tm) trap (built by Ginko the Fiendish, kobold expert7) to confront the necromancer(12), who casts Lesser Death-Like Sleep(6) on them and escapes. They gather up what treasure the necromancer didn&apos;t want - plenty of armor & weapons for Bob, Bert & Robere  - return to town, on the way, they save Bob&apos;s older brother, Rob(commoner6) from orc raiders (warrior5).  They report back to their respective mentors and train up to (5), Robin learns nominal Improved Sleep, and can now cast 3 magic missiles, Robere now casts Cure Serious Wounds.<br>
<br>
[/sblock]<br>
[Sblock]<br>
Bob, a fighter (5) in service to the local lord(13), Bert, a thief (5) in service to the guildmaster (14),  Robin a wizards (13) apprentice (5)  who just mastered Lesser Improved Sleep, and Robere a cleric  (5) sent by the high priest (13), are brought together to perform missions to protect their town.  First they route a gang of Bandits(the unofficial NPC Class 5), saving a merchant(expert7) who gives them a reward(500gp) that they use to buy Cure Seroous Wounds potions when they drop Robere off at the temple on the way home.  They all train up to (6).  Next they head out to clear a haunted crypt, facing zombies (2HD+4 levels of Barbarian), which Bob recognizes as casualties of a recent skirmish,  meaning, the DM explains through high-INT Robin, that they must have been recently animated by an evil wizard(14).  Sleep and backstab do nothing, so Robin casts magic missiles and Bert sticks to his sling while Bob fights and Robere Turns their way to victory.  Bert gets them past a fiendish(tm) trap (built by Ginko the Fiendish, kobold expert9) to confront the necromancer(14), who casts nominal Death-Like Sleep(7) on them and escapes. They gather up what treasure the necromancer didn&apos;t want - plenty of armor & weapons for Bob, Bert & Robere  - return to town, on the way, they save Bob&apos;s older brother, Rob(commoner8) from orc raiders (warrior7).  They report back to their respective mentors and train up to (7), Robin learns Greater Improved Sleep, and can now cast 4 magic missiles, Robere now casts Cure Critical Wounds.<br>
<br>
[/sblock]<br>

<br>
[Sblock]<br>
Bob, a fighter (7) in service to the local lord(15), Bert, a thief (7) in service to the guildmaster (16),  Robin a wizards (15) apprentice (7)  who just mastered Lesser Improved Sleep, and Robere a cleric  (7) sent by the high priest (15), are brought together to perform missions to protect their town.  First they route a gang of Bandits(the unofficial NPC Class 7), saving a merchant(expert9) who gives them a reward(1000gp) that they use to buy Cure Critical Wounds potions when they drop Robere off at the temple on the way home.  They all train up to (8).  Next they head out to clear a haunted crypt, facing zombies (2HD+6 levels of Barbarian), which Bob recognizes as casualties of a recent skirmish,  meaning, the DM explains through high-INT Robin, that they must have been recently animated by an evil Mage(16).  Sleep and backstab do nothing, so Robin casts magic missiles and Bert sticks to his sling while Bob fights and Robere Turns their way to victory.  Bert gets them past a fiendish(tm) trap (built by Ginko the Fiendish, kobold expert11) to confront the Mage (16), who casts Young Dr. Kildaire's Medically-induced Coma(8) on them and escapes. They gather up what treasure the necromancer didn&apos;t want - plenty of armor & weapons for Bob, Bert & Robere  - return to town, on the way, they save Bob&apos;s older brother, Rob(commoner10) from orc raiders (warrior9).  They report back to their respective mentors and train up to (9), Robin learns Heightened Greater Improved Sleep(5), and can now cast 5 magic missiles, Robere now casts Cure Emergent Trauma.<br>
<br>
[/sblock]<br>


[/sblock]
With a level tolerance of (say) +/-3, I'm not sure it's a ton.
I suspect it'd be around 5, ok maybe 7:

1) Skill Challenge: the foe is so overwhelming all you can hope to do is avoid fighting it.
2) Solo: The party is capable enough to take on the same foe if they work as a team, and catch it alone.
3) Elite: the party has progressed to the point that they're individually a match of the same creature.
4) Standard: the party is so practiced at defeating the foe that consistently win at even odds.
5)Minion: Any member of the party, can, with a bit of luck, dispatch one of these same creatures in a moment.
6)Swarm: only mass waves of dozens or hundreds are still a threat.
7)Skill Challenge: Though the party could lay waste the entire population, there's something more they need from them than can be gained by slaughter or intimidation, alone.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
EDIT: I think one effect of the 4e approach is that it removes much of the wargame aspect of the system. You can't just allocate "points" and then build figures/armies to compete against one another and see what the resulting fiction is. You need to have some prior conception of the fiction - eg these PCs are mid-paragon tier, and so goblins are threats only in large numbers - before you can build the right figures/armies (eg a "swarm" of goblin skirmishers that, as a minor action, can "kill" an adjacent goblin minion to heal).
I know you're a lawyer, not a physicist, but is that The General Theory of 4e Relativity? Or The Special?
 

Hussar

Legend
TBH, I'm not shocked about 4e's popularity in the poll. Everyone forgets that even back when 4e was a thing, every single poll showed that 4e was the most played (or if not the most played, certainly the equally played) RPG out there. The market with 4e was about 30 million (give or take) and without shrunk to about 12 million. 4e was still the gorilla in the room, just not the dominant one with Paizo bringing up a very close second and later in the edition, first rank. But, that wasn't so much due to Paizo continuing to grow but, rather, 4e just shrinking.

Even now, you look at online play and 4e and Pathfinder are pretty close in number of games played.

So, really, it shouldn't come as a shock to anyone that 4e is hovering around the 1/3 mark when you take 5e out of the equation. That's exactly where it was when it was the latest edition.
 

The thing with 4e is, for those of us who are veterans of 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition, it felt too different. No more like D&D than any of the many other fantasy roleplaying games (e.g. Runequest, Tunnels and Trolls) that tried to jump on the D&D bandwagon in the 1980s.

For anyone who started on 4e that simply isn't an issue, and indeed it is 5e that doesn't feel like the D&D they know.
 

Hussar

Legend
The thing with 4e is, for those of us who are veterans of 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition, it felt too different. No more like D&D than any of the many other fantasy roleplaying games (e.g. Runequest, Tunnels and Trolls) that tried to jump on the D&D bandwagon in the 1980s.

For anyone who started on 4e that simply isn't an issue, and indeed it is 5e that doesn't feel like the D&D they know.

See, the problem is, you assume that 4e players aren't veterans of other editions. That simply isn't true. At the very least, most 4e players cut their teeth on 3e. And, a very large chunk of them gamed earlier editions as well. The whole "it felt too different" has more to do with how things were presented than any actual objective changes. 5e is far, far closer to 4e mechanically than any other edition. It's just written differently. It's absolutely astounding how well WotC has managed to convince folks that 5e is different than 4e.

And it really speaks to how little 4e critics actually learned about 4e instead of simply spouting off stuff they read about the game.
 

pemerton

Legend
Clearly, it's a good illusion, if even you are missing it! ;)

Maybe a hypothetical non-illusory treadmill would help
I have to confess that I didn't read your treadmill word-for-word, I'm sorry - more of a quick skim to get the gist.

I guess I don't think layering meaningful fiction over the maths of a RPG is an illusion. I tend to just call that playing the game!
 

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