How do you get to GURPS?

That turned out to be a mistake in a different way. My relative inexperience with the system showed, and that hurt the game. But equally, M&M II’s different method of modeling things like iterative attacks proved very unpopular. The speedster character’s iconic super speed punching was not intuitive; it didn’t feel right just giving a damage bonus instead of giving the character more attacks and thus, attack rolls.

Yeah. The way that M&M II was balanced just really couldn't handle someone being able to attack (a single dude) more than once during a round of combat. Speedsters are very tough to handle in a game with a tightly controlled action economy. Its one place where I think M&M (all versions) really fell down.
 

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Voadam

Legend
For our group it usually works out as one person saying "I'd like to run X" and the rest of us either agreeing or not. We have a mix of styles with some people never reading the books or background, others getting into the nitty gritty of mechanics or setting, and some having definite system preferences (no more "Rulefinder", 5e is great except for the complete lack of rules, 4e is too boring and the mechanics and choices don't matter, etc.) some compromises get made and usually we go for it. My preference is D&Dish fantasy but I've also agreed to VtM20, d20 Modern, a homebrew d20 system mystic Mormon western game, Shadowrun 4e, and Mutants and Masterminds in the last couple of years.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Yeah. The way that M&M II was balanced just really couldn't handle someone being able to attack (a single dude) more than once during a round of combat. Speedsters are very tough to handle in a game with a tightly controlled action economy. Its one place where I think M&M (all versions) really fell down.

Judging from the way the players whose designs involved some kind of shtick that involved multiple attacks- the speedster’s superfast punches or striking multiple foes; the guy with the super-gun that could go full auto, etc.- they didn’t care if the math for the actual damage worked out the same, they really hated the way M&M modeled that style of attack. The journey was just as important as the destination.

(I agreed, FWIW.)
 

practicalm

Explorer
I choose the system I want to play because it brings things to the table that other systems do not. It's a false choice to say complex versus simple, because once character creation is out of the way GURPS is no more complex for the player than any other system. The choice of system is what is the Gamemaster trying to accomplish with their game.
GURPS handles a lot of different styles but it breaks on other different styles.

I like GURPS because I like point based systems and I like that a person with a Crossbow will ruin your day no matter how skilled or awesome you are in Fantasy worlds. Games where its not actually hard to die mean players are more likely to behave in towns and not just walk over everyone because are high level. Also you build your character as you want at the start and not need to jump through hoops to find the right combinations of multi-classing.

I like Champions because even though the fights don't feel comic book, the game does a good job modeling all sorts of powers. Fights can be a slog as each side tries to wear down the endurance of the other but it makes for a good team comic book game. But I'd probably use GURPS for a low powered gritty superheroes game because I like it better for that.

Every system brings it's own strengths and if that's the feeling you are evoking for your game that is the system you should use.
It's why I hate the d20 system being used for modern or space settings. The leveling up just feels wrong to me.
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
If the "fire" in this metaphor is "complex game mechanics," then I would say that my job as GM is akin to being the engineer who manages the ship's boilers. The rest of the crew have different jobs and should enjoy the voyage without getting burned.
This is, stated in the rules or otherwise, a GM's job. But I think there's a turning point, when managing the rules FOR the players becomes counter-productive. There are also the players (like me) who will want to know and use the rules without GM assistance, because there's the possibility that the GM says he knows the rules, but doesn't.

Still, that's another way to get to GURPS: hold the players' hands until they can make it on their own.

I choose the system I want to play because it brings things to the table that other systems do not. It's a false choice to say complex versus simple, because once character creation is out of the way GURPS is no more complex for the player than any other system. The choice of system is what is the Gamemaster trying to accomplish with their game.
GURPS handles a lot of different styles but it breaks on other different styles.
Yes, it's a style choice. Maybe one game clamps down on damaging moves while another allows easy whirlwind attacks. But I wouldn't say GURPS is just as simple as the next game. I mean, this is from the Basic Rules FAQ:
Steve Jackson Games said:
When I roll against a target number less than 3, when do a result of 3 or 4 still succeed?

Defense rolls may always be attempted, and a 3 or 4 is still a Critical Success. Same thing for Resistance rolls to magic or poison, most forced IQ and HT rolls, and any other resistance roll against a force directly targeting a living or sapient being.

Other rolls (such as skill rolls or physical feats) are impossible if the target number is below 3. However, the dice may still be rolled if the character does not realize the attempt is futile, and if you're rolling vs. a -7 or worse, even a roll of 3 will be a Critical Failure.
Wait, what? The answer for a simple game would be "a 3 or 4 is always a Critical Success." Or better yet, "a 3 or 4 is always a Success."

Personally, you'd have to twist my arm to get me to play D&D 5 right now, but I'd do it because my dusty knowledge of 3rd edition rules would probably fill in the gaps. If a GM said, "hey, let's play GURPS!" I might think about it if she meant "GURPS Lite," otherwise my reaction would be "you know, I've really been eager to get another D&D 5 game going..."
 

Michele

Villager
Wait, what? The answer for a simple game would be "a 3 or 4 is always a Critical Success." Or better yet, "a 3 or 4 is always a Success."

This is an extreme case that will only come up if a player wants to attempt something that has the same likelihood of succeeding as winning a record jackpot in a national lottery.

The rule clarification above is provided with the intent to allow a GM to cut a player a generous break, if the player really really really wants to attempt the impossible. It may very well never happen that the situation arises if the players don't want that, and it still might not be required if the GM relies on the overriding rule concerning impossible tasks:

-10 – Impossible. No sane person
would attempt such a task. The
GM may wish to forbid such
attempts altogether.
(P. B346)

I would also recommend taking into consideration the box titled "Damn the Rules, Full Speed Ahead!" and the paragraph titled "Arbitrary Fiat". They are both in the chapter about Game Mastering.
 


Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
As stated earlier GURPS is modular, so the complexity depends on what the group chooses to do.
GURPS Lite is a nice start then only add what you need

Also GURPS background notes are often amazing well done and useful even if you don’t use the system
 

This is, stated in the rules or otherwise, a GM's job. But I think there's a turning point, when managing the rules FOR the players becomes counter-productive.

Definitely. I find that I don't care about players knowing the rules as long as they are playing ball: immersing themselves in the fiction, ready with an action declaration on their turn (even if it's sub-optimal), paying attention, making an effort to get the basics down, etc. If I have a newbie who won't even go that far, then it isn't going to work (might be the wrong hobby, wrong game system, wrong people chemistry, etc.).

There are also the players (like me) who will want to know and use the rules without GM assistance, because there's the possibility that the GM says he knows the rules, but doesn't.

I'm curious about this, but it seems like it can lead pretty far off topic. I might turn it into a new thread when I have more time to think.

Still, that's another way to get to GURPS: hold the players' hands until they can make it on their own.

It's hard to read tone on the internet, but I wouldn't use the phrase "hold the player's hands" because it often has disdainful connotations of coddling and spoon feeding. I guess you could say that's what I'm doing at my table, but it has never felt that way to me (and no player has ever complained about that). We have exciting, fast-paced adventures. Depending on the genre and system switches, games can be deadly or safe, combats complex or simple. I simply don't expect new players to read the rulebooks from cover to cover and internalize the details. That's great for hardcore gamers. I like to reach out to people who don't identify as gamers, which is a rich pool of potential players. Many of them get hooked and start buying the books and learning the system, but I don't see that as a requirement as long as they're having fun and contributing to everyone else's good time. I have a number of long-term players who are simply uninterested in the mechanical details. They just want to be part of exciting, unpredictable adventure stories.

Yes, it's a style choice. Maybe one game clamps down on damaging moves while another allows easy whirlwind attacks. But I wouldn't say GURPS is just as simple as the next game.

I would say that GURPS is more complex than many games from the GM's perspective. It takes some time, effort, and skill to make all the decisions about what elements of the system menu you want to include. Once that's done, though, the complexity is up to each group. I teach kids to play GURPS (or variants) regularly. Middle-schoolers have no trouble at all, but even elementary kids do just fine. My ten-year-old teaches his friends and cousins how to play and they build characters and have adventures without my help. Do they get everything right? Not at all, but they've got the basics down and have a blast. That's the whole idea, right?

In any event, I didn't mean to focus so much on GURPS. My intent was to follow from the OP and use it as an example of a purportedly complex system and how I've succeeded at introducing it to non-gamers. Your original question, of course, seemed more about convincing existing gamers to try different systems. In my experience, that can be more difficult, partly because people like what they know, but also because they have invested real effort into developing expertise in one or more systems and may not enjoy the process of starting over with a new system. (I'm sure that there are many other reasons too.)

I don't mind that as a player. I'll play just about anything that someone offers to run. But as a GM, I'm comfortable with GURPS or 5e (or any earlier version, really), and willing to do Call of Cthulhu, Traveller, maybe a few other boutique titles. Beyond that, my time is finite, and I don't really want to spend the money and time to learn new systems well enough to run them. (With GURPS being such a toolbox, I'm always more inclined to just customize it for different genres.)
 

ART!

Deluxe Unhuman
Judging from the way the players whose designs involved some kind of shtick that involved multiple attacks- the speedster’s superfast punches or striking multiple foes; the guy with the super-gun that could go full auto, etc.- they didn’t care if the math for the actual damage worked out the same, they really hated the way M&M modeled that style of attack. The journey was just as important as the destination.

(I agreed, FWIW.)

I've been running Masks for a group that's used to more "traditional" RPGs, on the heels of running and playing weekly D&D 5E for 2 years with them, and they are really frustrated with certain aspects of it - particularly the narrative approach to combat. Sometimes, you just want to flex your super-muscles and punch somebody through a building, but you want to earn it by having character who the mechanics say in black-and-white that you can, indeed, punch a guy through a building.

Not knocking Masks at all - it's a beautiful thing.

So, yeah - there's a real satisfaction that can come from modeling things they way the source media or genre inspiration portrays things.

But I'd probably use GURPS for a low powered gritty superheroes game because I like it better for that.

GURPS would definitely be my go-to older system for that sub-genre. I say "older" because I suspect there are systems from the past 15 years or so that could that really well, too. That said, those newer systems are not going to have the satisfying crunch of GURPS.

As stated earlier GURPS is modular, so the complexity depends on what the group chooses to do.
GURPS Lite is a nice start then only add what you need

This is the way to go, if you're worried about GURPs' "complexity".
 

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