D&D 5E Fighter subclasses for every ability score

For a Cha fighter, you could use the Paladin. Change the damage type from Radiant to Psychic, lower the damage die because it affects everyone and you're most of the way there.

Xeviat said:

Your idea to look at the ability scores does lead to some good fighter archetypes. The brute (con), the tactician (int), the weapon master (Wis), and the hero (Cha) all suggest archetypes rather than just mechanics.

I don't feel like a STR/dex melee concept lends itself to an archetype, though. Those archetypes feel better served by the Rogue. I'm seeing a fast striking melee warrior, someone who lacks the weapon master's artful techniques and focus, but that isn't screaming a character to me, just a mechanic. Unless "warrior" feels like an archetype separate from a big brute.

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You know, with STR and DEX being big for any weapon wielder, maybe they shouldn't be archetypes. Maybe there should be a bunch of core fighter features that support "strong and heavy armor" and "dex and light armor" and you can play either way successfully with any of the archetypes that focus on the other ability scores.

Xeviat said:

You know, inching in on the territory of the Barbarian, Bard, monk, paladin, and ranger might be okay, as an option for people who want to play an archetype that leans that way but without the magic. I do agree that the core subclasses focus too much on mechanics and don't have identify of their own.

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Agreed. Just like the integrated multiclassing of Eldritch Knight or whatever but in the other direction - the flavor in a pure martial form.

Blue said:

You know, with STR and DEX being big for any weapon wielder, maybe they shouldn't be archetypes. Maybe there should be a bunch of core fighter features that support "strong and heavy armor" and "dex and light armor" and you can play either way successfully with any of the archetypes that focus on the other ability scores.



Agreed. Just like the integrated multiclassing of Eldritch Knight or whatever but in the other direction - the flavor in a pure martial form.

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I like both of your thoughts there.

Cha - definitely Gladiator/Swashbuckler - a highly performative class that uses panache and style to gain an advantage, dazzling and distracting their adversary, taunting their opponent to make wild strikes or rash move

Wis/Int I'm not sure how you separate this two states in a fighter as both require the character to observe the opponent and make tactical decisions on where and how to move/defend/hit for advantage. Whether thats a sniper, waiting patiently to get the aimed shot or if its a melee tactician, who moves at exactly the right position, or is able to trigger a desired reaction.

Tonguez said:

Cha - definitely Gladiator/Swashbuckler - a highly performative class that uses panache and style to gain an advantage, dazzling and distracting their adversary, taunting their opponent to make wild strikes or rash move.

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I think this could fit in with a hero or champion type of character too. This is the kind of person who would be inspiring their allies and demoralizing their enemies.

Just kinda thinking out loud here...

An idea for the INT fighter could be a series of 'probing attacks' to gauge the strength and ability of your opponent. On a successful attack, forgo doing damage in exchange for information about the opponent (HP, Saving Throw modifiers, or the like).

Alternately, the 'probing attack' could be used to increase your damage on the next successful hit. This could be achieved by a flat modifier (boring), rolling the damage more than once and taking the higher number, or automatically giving max damage.

TwoSix said:

I'd see an Int fighter as making a lot of studied, precise strikes, and working with their allies to make coordinated attacks. Maybe features like "Sacrifice one of your attacks to identify a target's weakness. The target is vulnerable to the next attack that targets them." or "Sacrifice one of your attacks and choose one of your allies. The next time that ally takes the Attack action, they may make one additional attack that has advantage."

A Wisdom fighter I would see as being more defensive. Sacrifice attacks to gain additional reactions, which can be used to make parries.

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Since so much of the fighter's power is baked into the Extra Attack (2) ability for tier 3, I'd argue that making subclass features that can sacrifice one or more attacks is a good way to broaden a subclass power budget without making the overall build more powerful.

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This is interesting - using attacks as a resource because the Fighter excels at that. I have some worry about when tey just have Extra Attack that if they regularly sacrifice they will be doing less, well, "fighter things" then other classes. So need to make sure that what they get feels like something meaningful.

For instance, instead of a 1:1 trading attacks for reaction that allows parries let's give more. Maybe giving up an attack lets you take "Parry stance" until the start of your next round. In Parry stance you have +2 AC from parrying and also can use your reaction to force a reroll on one attack that hits you.

Blue said:

This is interesting - using attacks as a resource because the Fighter excels at that. I have some worry about when tey just have Extra Attack that if they regularly sacrifice they will be doing less, well, "fighter things" then other classes. So need to make sure that what they get feels like something meaningful.

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Oh, absolutely. Level 3 fighter features are almost all damage increases, or damage+utility. Any feature that lets you swap an attack should have a return that's, at-worst, equivalent damage to one fighter attack and situationally even stronger.

Likewise, since they are fighters, you don't want a feature that's encouraging them to give up all their attacks every round, since that takes away from the feel of the class and is moving a little hard into lazylord territory. So a "once-per-turn" limitation or trading an attack for a bonus reaction and/or a superior reaction makes sense.

Blue said:

For instance, instead of a 1:1 trading attacks for reaction that allows parries let's give more. Maybe giving up an attack lets you take "Parry stance" until the start of your next round. In Parry stance you have +2 AC from parrying and also can use your reaction to force a reroll on one attack that hits you.

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Yea, this is good. I'd probably push for +2, and lets you take a reaction to make an attack on an enemy within 5' that attacks you. Sacrificing an attack for an AC bonus is conditionally good, but probably not worth the trade off (contrast with Kensei Monks' Agile Parry, which sacrifices a few points of damage for a +2 AC boost). Adding in some conditional offense moves it from a "probably not, unless I'm desperate for defense" to a "Yea, I'll probably do that", which I think is where early level class features should be.

You could also tie them together by having them spend a reaction to force a reroll, and if they miss, then the fighter can make one counter-attack. More defense, but still some additional offense.

Tonguez said:

Cha - definitely Gladiator/Swashbuckler - a highly performative class that uses panache and style to gain an advantage, dazzling and distracting their adversary, taunting their opponent to make wild strikes or rash move

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I like your thematics. Can you suggest some CHR-focused mechanics that would support it?

Tonguez said:

Wis/Int I'm not sure how you separate this two states in a fighter as both require the character to observe the opponent and make tactical decisions on where and how to move/defend/hit for advantage. Whether thats a sniper, waiting patiently to get the aimed shot or if its a melee tactician, who moves at exactly the right position, or is able to trigger a desired reaction.

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I struggled with a strong concept for WIS. Are these so close that maybe it should be a single subclass that can trigger of INT or WIS for it's features?

akr71 said:

Just kinda thinking out loud here...

An idea for the INT fighter could be a series of 'probing attacks' to gauge the strength and ability of your opponent. On a successful attack, forgo doing damage in exchange for information about the opponent (HP, Saving Throw modifiers, or the like).

Alternately, the 'probing attack' could be used to increase your damage on the next successful hit. This could be achieved by a flat modifier (boring), rolling the damage more than once and taking the higher number, or automatically giving max damage.

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I'm a little wary of "don't do anything now to do something later". Probing with your attack to get information = good. Giving up the damage you'd do = not so much. Especially as most 5e combats aren't that long that most of the time it's better just to try to inflict "condition: Dead" on the opponent.

The "no damage now for double later" is "you'll have two attacks worth of damage total. do ti normal and it's half now. Do it special and it's none now. Huh?". So it would need to be bigger than that. But even there, I'm reminded of playing Earthdawn where casters needed to spend actions to get "threads" to power their spells, so you had these null actions often. When you might only have an action every 10-15 minutes (depending on party size and how many foes the DM is running) I'm leary of that - it doesn't feel like you're contributing even if you will be.

So something like:

Probing Attack: Once per round on a successful hit, you learn one thing about your opponent: Max HPs, total damage taken, best save, worst save, movement speed and modes, all resistances/immunities, or any vulnerabilities. If you are proficient in Investigation you may pick two.

(Once per round is to keep the RL speed up since it's a separate DM interaction.)

Anticipate foe: When you take the Attack action, you have advantage on all weapon attacks, natural attacks and ability checks for special attacks like grappling until the beginning of your next turn as long as you damaged the target with a weapon attack since the beginning of your last turn.
You may do this a number of times equal to your INT or WIS modifier (min 1). Uses are restored on a long rest.

(Using the Samurai as a guide that at-will advantage on all attacks shouldn't be too often per day. Also note that it's "since the beginning of last turn" so reaction attacks count for damaging, and "until the beginning of your next turn" so you get the bonus on reaction attacks as well. Plus it counts for shoves and grappling.)