D&D 5E Attacking defenseless NPCs

Bawylie

A very OK person
I'm half with you. The knife to the throat situation is a problem, but on the other hand I don't in any fashion think it applies to the sniping scenario the OP describes.

The knife to the throat objection is one of the classic objections to the D&D rules and hit points specifically.

D&D's abstract hit point system depends on the stakes of an attack not being known until after the attack is made. For any proposition to attack, the exact nature of the attack (how it is described) is not known until after the fortune is described and the hit points that are inflicted are compared to the hit points of the target that remain. The resulting wound (if any) is then described in terms of the proportion of remaining hit points that the attack removed from the target. Thus, a 4 hit point attack on a 40 hit point target is described in an entirely different way than an attack on a 4 hit point target. One results in some minor wound, while the other results in a potentially mortal wound - even though on paper they both did 4 hit points of damage. Four hit points of damage means nothing in terms of fictional positioning except relative to the hit points of the target.

This sort of system is generally known as 'Fortune in the Middle': proposition->fortune->interpreted results.

Where this system runs into problems is if somehow you can arrange to have the stakes of the action be assumed to be known by the participants before the fortune roll is made, a situation normally considered to be Fortune at the End. In systems built for Fortune at the End, the game rules arbitrate between two outcomes in some manner, with high stakes like the death of the opponent normally being quite difficult unless the attacker can achieve equally great advantage. But if you can arrange this or if it happens in the fictional positioning of a D&D game, then the abstract system comes apart because it will generate a result incompatible with the assumed stakes. Remember, the normal fortune attack roll does not know what the stakes are. So naturally, if you begin an attack check by setting the stakes, the fortune system will not be able to arbitrate between these stakes and decide what happens.

Falling is one common example of this. When a character falls it feels like we know the stakes before we roll. We already know that the player has fallen from a great height and to a very large extent the circumstances of the fall or we wouldn't be rolling for falling damage. So there is relatively little opportunity to narrate away that fact. When the abstract fortune system then deducts hit points from the character it frequently generates a result that doesn't feel right for the narrated fictional circumstance.

The knife at the throat example is another classic example. In this case, it again feels like we know the stakes before we roll - the throat is going to be cut. So when we ask the abstract fortune system to resolve this as an attack, it generates results that don't feel right for the stake we set. We are wanting a system in this case that tells us what the result of someone's throat being cut is, but the D&D rules don't do that. In no way did we plug into the system the situation. Of course it doesn't handle what we wanted, it was never designed for that.

D&D from the very start has always held as an exception to the normal combat rules that if the target is truly helpless to resist an attack that the normal combat rules don't apply. In 1e AD&D this wasn't even a fortune test. The stakes simply occurred, throat cut, because there was no reason why they shouldn't occur because the outcome in that case was not doubtful. 3e D&D codified this idea as the Coup De Grace rules. If the target was helpless, then a different fortune resolution system applied.

But this still doesn't address the 'throat to the neck' scenario, because under the D&D rules someone with a knife to their throat isn't helpless.

One of the most important things to note in this scenario is that the D&D rules have no way to generate the fictional positioning of the scene in the first place. That is to say, nothing in the D&D rules tests the proposition, "I [try to] put a knife to the target's throat." One of the most important things to realize then is that the proposition, "I put a knife to the throat [of a creature that is not helpless]" is an invalid proposition under the D&D rules. D&D has zero ways to handle that proposition and zero tests of propositions that result in the fictional state 'I have a knife to non-helpless target X's throat'. The stake that the player wants to set can't actually happen in the game, and if for some reason a DM does pass that proposition and use some sort of fortune test to indicate that fictional positioning has transpired, then the DM has erred and not the game.

We can imagine the sort of things that first have to happen before anything equivalent to this fictional positioning could occur. First, the PC would have to win some sort of grapple contest in a definitive manner, so that the target is in a state like 'pinned'. But the 'pinned' state is by the rules not a state of being helpless, therefore the 'pinned' character does not have a knife to the throat. Rather, the state described by the rules is much more like the fictional positioning sometimes seen in movies where the attacker is trying to push a knife into the throat or vitals of someone that they are grappling with, but the person is holding back the knife arm preventing the attack. In this contest, damage is equivalent to slowly pushing the knife into the targets throat while they resist vigorously, a state that will eventually but not immediately result in the targets death. But you might argue, what about the case where the knife blade is already held against the throat and the position of the defenders hands is already known. Well, again, this fictional positioning cannot result from the D&D rules, or at least, not without the cooperation of the defender who must agree to voluntarily be helpless.

The objection can then be made of course that this not realistic. There ought to be situations where an attacker can achieve the fictional positioning of a knife held to the victim's throat. And this objection is completely valid, but at the same time it's not at all clear what can be done about it. If you have some rules that allow a victim to be made helpless and thus bypassing the normal combat mechanics, then that is a very powerful form of attack and you can expect most combats to evolve toward that as a meta-strategy. It's easy to complain that the rules that don't let the normal hit points be bypassed generate stupid outcomes, but the problem is that any rules that do allow the normal hit points to be bypassed are also likely to generate stupid results. For example, if you had rules that allowed a grappler to make the target helpless, and then allowed the grappler to perform a coup de grace as an immediate action, then the upshot of those rules would be grapplers would be extraordinarily powerful. A PC classed grappler NPC would likely be devastating.

I find that players get a lot more thoughtful about combat house rules when they realize that the same rules that they are proposing will be applied to them. This has a tendency to give the players a large incentive to ensure that the rules are fair and balanced and make for a good gaming experience, and for that reason if no other, I would encourage DMs to resolve actions by NPCs with the same rules you use for PCs. If you have players that know that whatever good things that they accrue for themselves under the house rules, they'll never have to pay any price for those rules, then you'll end up in a situation where players have an incentive to play the metagame and try to agitate for and lawyer for house rules. "When the rules generate stupid outcomes, the rules are wrong" is a powerful and very disruptive tool in the hands of a power gamer if it is applied in a one sided fashion.

Aren’t you kind of overlooking the one big thing in the D&D rules that DOES account for for off-book propositions?

This is why the game has an arbiter. The DM is the game’s rule system that handles these cases. A human being with a brain and judgment who isn’t mindlessly adhering to program but weighing stakes and potential outcomes in advance of asking for a check.

So, respectfully, you’re wrong on this claim: “D&D has zero ways to handle that proposition and zero tests of propositions that result in the fictional state 'I have a knife to non-helpless target X's throat'.”

Moreover, re: helplessness, under my “checkmate” houserule, helplessness isn’t a prerequisite. Helplessness certainly does qualify for checkmate, but it’s not the ONLY thing that qualifies. Circumstances may permit other conditions that permit automatic defeat.

Take a fight on a rope bridge, where some participants sever the ropes - that’s an automatic loss for anyone left on the bridge when the thing shakes loose. You know the rules of d&d don’t cover that scenario either. The creatures on the bridge aren’t helpless, can defend themselves, may have full HP. But the human brain of the DM can elect to apply some rules like figuring out how many HP a rope bridge has and calculating fall damage or not. They don’t have to - they could just as easily rule that anyone on the bridge falls and the combat is over. Or they could ask for a strength check to cut the ropes. Or offer a save to the creatures on the bridge. Or, or, or...
 

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Oofta

Legend
For the "knife to the throat" scenario you could implement something like the coupe de grace' from 3.5 rules. Basically if you're adjacent to someone that's helpless you automatically do n amount of damage and the target gets a fortitude (con) save based on the damage you just did. Before anybody asks, yes I did use it against a PC in a standoff situation (the PC rolled high and survived two attempts).

Part of the problem I had though was who can you use it against? Let's say the tarrasque just failed a hold monster save, no matter how unlikely that may be. Do you allow it against godzilla? Or just humanoids? What about a giant? A beast or animal? I can see the appeal, just not sure it's worth it.
 

Bawylie

A very OK person
Alternatively, we say that the game rules define the role you are playing in that context, and you are defining "lick of sense" by reference to a world outside the fictional one you're playing in... and *that* doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Im not convinced that abandoning basic consequentialism (edit: I mean “causality” not consequentialism, I apologize for the confusion) is nonsensical, regardless of a real world or fantasy setting.

“You’re on fire, now in the real world, you’d reasonably expect to stop, drop, and roll or douse yourself with water. But here in d&d, the fire keeps burning until the dice say it stops because that’s what the rules say.”

Eh, I’d rather keep some real world cause and effect stuff. It empowers players to make good, informed decisions about the circumstances their characters are in.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
Aren’t you kind of overlooking the one big thing in the D&D rules that DOES account for for off-book propositions?

This is why the game has an arbiter. The DM is the game’s rule system that handles these cases. A human being with a brain and judgment who isn’t mindlessly adhering to program but weighing stakes and potential outcomes in advance of asking for a check.

I'm not overlooking house rules at all. I'm assuming house rules exist. However, what I'm equally assuming is that generally the house rules for 'knife to the throat' usually suck either because they come down to pure fiat, which means that they exist as a sort of rail-roading technique for the GM to get the stories that he wants, or else they bypass the games normal assumptions so much that they basically create a new game.

So, respectfully, you’re wrong on this claim: “D&D has zero ways to handle that proposition and zero tests of propositions that result in the fictional state 'I have a knife to non-helpless target X's throat'.”

The existence of house rules, even in a system that validates Rule Zero and the right of the GM to create house rules on the fly, does not actually contradict my statement. "The rules have no problems because you can always create a house rule..." is such a notorious rebuttal, that it even has a name.

Take a fight on a rope bridge, where some participants sever the ropes - that’s an automatic loss for anyone left on the bridge when the thing shakes loose.

Not even remotely equivalent, and no it isn't. I mean, even if the fall was infinitely long, it still wouldn't be an automatic loss in D&D to fall. I suppose you could have some sort of 500' drop into a pool of lava, but even that in general isn't an automatic loss.

You know the rules of d&d don’t cover that scenario either.

1) Every system of D&D I'm familiar of allows players to attack objects, in this case a rope bridge.
2) Every system of D&D I'm familiar with has some sort of rule that arbitrates attacks on objects and thus describes the chance a robe bridge will break under attack.
3) Every system of D&D I'm familiar with has some sort of rule that handles falling damage.
4) Incidentals of the situation like fortune tests for maintain balance on a saying bridge, grabbing on to rope, or climbing the broken bridge have generic fortune tests that can be and generally are applied in such situations. (Even in 1e AD&D, which lacked a generic and universal skill and saving throw system, examples of handling fortune tests like this can be found in published modules.)

So no, there isn't really one thing about a fight on a rope bridge that requires actual house rules, and the toolbox that a DM needs to handle fortune tests in that situation is right at their fingertips. Which in fact you seem to admit when you start listing the rules that cover this situation. So no, this isn't remotely similar to the problem of 'called shots' and trying to use the combat system to resolve Fortune at the End situations.

And obvious proof of this is no one in this thread needs explaining how the pieces of the rope bridge scenario works in the RAW and asked to judge the situation in the RAW, pretty much everyone in the thread is going to apply the same ideas with slight differences in choices of difficulty or the fortune tests that apply (a saving throw as opposed to a skill check, for example). However, in the case of your "checkmate" houserule, no one in the thread has the slightest idea how it works until you tell us.
 

Bawylie

A very OK person
I'm not overlooking house rules at all. I'm assuming house rules exist. However, what I'm equally assuming is that generally the house rules for 'knife to the throat' usually suck either because they come down to pure fiat, which means that they exist as a sort of rail-roading technique for the GM to get the stories that he wants, or else they bypass the games normal assumptions so much that they basically create a new game.



The existence of house rules, even in a system that validates Rule Zero and the right of the GM to create house rules on the fly, does not actually contradict my statement. "The rules have no problems because you can always create a house rule..." is such a notorious rebuttal, that it even has a name.



Not even remotely equivalent, and no it isn't. I mean, even if the fall was infinitely long, it still wouldn't be an automatic loss in D&D to fall. I suppose you could have some sort of 500' drop into a pool of lava, but even that in general isn't an automatic loss.



1) Every system of D&D I'm familiar of allows players to attack objects, in this case a rope bridge.
2) Every system of D&D I'm familiar with has some sort of rule that arbitrates attacks on objects and thus describes the chance a robe bridge will break under attack.
3) Every system of D&D I'm familiar with has some sort of rule that handles falling damage.
4) Incidentals of the situation like fortune tests for maintain balance on a saying bridge, grabbing on to rope, or climbing the broken bridge have generic fortune tests that can be and generally are applied in such situations. (Even in 1e AD&D, which lacked a generic and universal skill and saving throw system, examples of handling fortune tests like this can be found in published modules.)

So no, there isn't really one thing about a fight on a rope bridge that requires actual house rules, and the toolbox that a DM needs to handle fortune tests in that situation is right at their fingertips. Which in fact you seem to admit when you start listing the rules that cover this situation. So no, this isn't remotely similar to the problem of 'called shots' and trying to use the combat system to resolve Fortune at the End situations.

And obvious proof of this is no one in this thread needs explaining how the pieces of the rope bridge scenario works in the RAW and asked to judge the situation in the RAW, pretty much everyone in the thread is going to apply the same ideas with slight differences in choices of difficulty or the fortune tests that apply (a saving throw as opposed to a skill check, for example). However, in the case of your "checkmate" houserule, no one in the thread has the slightest idea how it works until you tell us.

Cool. So in my last post I was trying to say “the DM is D&D’s way of handling cases not covered by rules.” I wasn’t saying houserules were. My bad on lack of clarity.

Demonstrative of my point was the rope bridge scenario. There are a number of rules that might be employed to resolve the situation but it’s the DM who decides which of the existing rules, if any, to apply. That may include simply narrating the result, a single ability check, and/or object hp and fall damage. All are valid DM judgment calls.

That said, since you won’t even stipulate that a 500 foot fall into a pool of lava constitutes a loss, we’re probably not going to reach an understanding on the subject.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I'm half with you. The knife to the throat situation is a problem, but on the other hand I don't in any fashion think it applies to the sniping scenario the OP describes.

For once, I largely agree with Celebrim - not just on this, but on the entire post. I have some additional thoughts I'll add.

The knife to the throat objection is one of the classic objections to the D&D rules and hit points specifically.

D&D's abstract hit point system depends on the stakes of an attack not being known until after the attack is made.

In a game theory sense, the stakes are known, but probabilistic. It is like playing a hand of blackjack for the right to make a spin on a roulette wheel. You don't know the exact outcome, but you can totally work out the expected return on the bet.


Where this system runs into problems is if somehow you can arrange to have the stakes of the action be assumed to be known by the participants before the fortune roll is made, a situation normally considered to be Fortune at the End. In systems built for Fortune at the End, the game rules arbitrate between two outcomes in some manner, with high stakes like the death of the opponent normally being quite difficult unless the attacker can achieve equally great advantage. But if you can arrange this or if it happens in the fictional positioning of a D&D game, then the abstract system comes apart because it will generate a result incompatible with the assumed stakes. Remember, the normal fortune attack roll does not know what the stakes are. So naturally, if you begin an attack check by setting the stakes, the fortune system will not be able to arbitrate between these stakes and decide what happens.

Falling is one common example of this. When a character falls it feels like we know the stakes before we roll.

...

The knife at the throat example is another classic example. In this case, it again feels like we know the stakes before we roll - the throat is going to be cut.

I think this becomes even more clear if we consider that the issue is that we feel like we know the *result* before the roll. There aren't "stakes" unless there's some question about the resolution. There is no "fortune", or action resolution, required - the player feels like they are in a position to strictly determine the narrative by choice.

There are only stakes from the point of view of a person trying to stop the throat from being cut - "If I don't convince them to stand down, my friend dies," has stakes.

One of the most important things to note in this scenario is that the D&D rules have no way to generate the fictional positioning of the scene in the first place.

I am not sure that's entirely true.

Consider the TV show, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. In this show, vampires are killed by a stake through the heart. But Buffy almost never *leads* with an attempt to stake a vampire. She generally takes an extended period pummeling the vampire, and then stakes them as a finishing move. Basically, the stake is ineffective until the vampire has been pummeled enough.

This is not too terribly different - in D&D, the equivalent is reducing the target to zero hit points, but alive. This is actually the helpless state the player wants - it is a choice explicitly allowed in the rules, and in this state, yes any hit will kill the target. The problem/disconnect is that the player feels this state can be reached by just grabbing the target, and that's not the case. Targets in D&D are... much more feisty than in the real world.

That is to say, nothing in the D&D rules tests the proposition, "I [try to] put a knife to the target's throat." One of the most important things to realize then is that the proposition, "I put a knife to the throat [of a creature that is not helpless]" is an invalid proposition under the D&D rules. D&D has zero ways to handle that proposition and zero tests of propositions that result in the fictional state 'I have a knife to non-helpless target X's throat'.

Nothing in the combat rules tests that proposition. However, thinking about it this way, we could say that this isn't really a combat action. It is a *social interaction* action. Specifically, Intimidate - threatening someone with a sharp object is even one of the examples in the skill description!

Basically, "I [try to] put a knife to the target's throat," and, "I [try to] stab the target in the throat" are different propositions. The former is about intimidation, the latter about combat. D&D doesn't have hit locations, so "in the throat" is a bit that has no meaning in the combat system.

I find that players get a lot more thoughtful about combat house rules when they realize that the same rules that they are proposing will be applied to them.

"If I allow this, everyone you've ever honked off is going to try to hire snipers to kill you, and they are as likely to succeed at it as you are to succeed at this," should be a good perspective-enhancing notion.
 
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S'mon

Legend
A standing orc is not helpless; I would run it RAW. Taking out a sentry like this is not easy, it is the kind of thing you want an assassin Rogue for, or at least a Sharpshooter ranger or fighter.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Im not convinced that abandoning basic consequentialism is nonsensical, regardless of a real world or fantasy setting.

Um, where I come from, "consequentialism" is the philosophic position that the morality of actions are judged by their consequences, and I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean here.

If, "basic consequentialism" to you mean, "things act like in the real world," I'm just going to have to say that I don't think we can make general statements.

“You’re on fire, now in the real world, you’d reasonably expect to stop, drop, and roll or douse yourself with water. But here in d&d, the fire keeps burning until the dice say it stops because that’s what the rules say.”

And, if I'm playing Clark Kent? The only reason for me to stop, drop, and roll is to maintain my cover story so folks don't know I'm really Superman.

In D&D, I might stop, drop, and roll because, regardless of how many hit points of damage the fire does, and how many I have, that stuff *hurts*!

As Celebrim noted already - we are talking "fortune-in-the-middle" where the actual result is not determined at the time the dice are rolled. So, maybe I'm on fire, or maybe I have a blister, depending on how many points of damage were done, and how many I have. Dictating the stop-drop-and-roll beforehand isn't appropriate. If I am, in fact, consumed in flames and in danger of dying, then I'll drop and roll, but we need to check the dice first.

Eh, I’d rather keep some real world cause and effect stuff.

That's fine. The question is whether you are keeping "cause and effect" stuff that is actively contradicted by the game rules you are playing under, and whether you've made departures from the rules clear to the players beforehand.

It empowers players to make good, informed decisions about the circumstances their characters are in.

If your rules are clear and consistent, then the players are empowered to make good, informed decisions. Making ad hoc applications of "real world" that are in defiance of the rules otherwise stated is not particularly empowering, as the players have to guess when you, the GM, are going to apply them. "Mother-may-I," is not empowering the player.
 

Dausuul

Legend
The sniper scenario isn't particularly interesting. It's already easier in the game (doable with Sharpshooter feat, Extra Attack, or a lucky crit) than it would be in real life (next to impossible), so I see no reason to make it even easier.

The knife to the throat scenario is one of the areas where the hit point rules do have issues - similar to falling damage - but here's my question: How did you get your knife to the enemy's throat in the first place? If we're talking about a sleeping or paralyzed target, okay, I can dig that. 3E had coup de grace rules that I think could be adapted to 5E fairly easily.

But if we're talking about just grabbing somebody who's awake and alert and putting a knife to their throat... that's regular combat, your target is fighting tooth and nail, and I'm going to apply the regular rules. You don't get to just declare that you have them pinned and your blade is poised above their jugular.
 

Elon Tusk

Explorer
If you have a knife to a Commoner's throat (1d8 hp), a dagger attack is likely to drop them.
But "knife to throat" doesn't constitute a RAW condition, except maybe grappled which would only limit movement.
Attacking an unconscious target grants advantage and a critical hit if within 5 feet, but that's not what this knife scenario is communicating to me.
 

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