D&D 3E/3.5 Countdown to Fourth Edition

Flamestrike · Jul 12, 2019

Garthanos said:
Is the short rest being 5 minutes an optional rule actually mentioned? And the adjustments the DM may need to make to support it?

DMG, under 'variant resting'.

Its the Heroic Fantasy variant (Short rests 5 minutes, Long rests 1 hour).

The Gritty realism variant turns SR's to 8 hours, and LR's to 1 whole week.

We run Short rests as a few minutes long and largely hand-waved (quick swig of water, bind some wounds. map check and a breather) but limited to only 2 per long rest.

I find 2-3 x 1 hour breaks in a Dungeon level to be all too frequently jarring and gamist. I've had PCs literally sit down and attempt to camp (for an hour, naturally) in a Dungeon hallway before.

If I had my way with 5E I would have made ALL classes function on at will and per encounter abilities, with a recovery method for the 'per encounter' abilities for in encounter recovery (like the 3.5 ToB classes).

Effects would be limited in scope to spells and effects of 1st-4th level. The sort of spells that arent game wrecking.

Fighters would be using stances, counters and maneuvers (just like ToB). Ditto Wizards, but they'd be spells instead of maneuvers, just using the same mechanic. Mage Armor or Mirror Image become basically 'stances'. Shield and Counterspell become 'counters'. Fireball and Sleep become 'maneuvers'.

I wouldn't have daily's (like 4E): those sorts of potent effects - in line with spells and effect of 5th-9th level - would be moved to at will 'out of combat' features (Fighters get to create a stronghold, or attract a special steed, or gain a band of myrmidons or gain Noble title and social perks etc, Wizards get to magically summon a tower, gain an army of undead/ summoned critters, cast potent Wish spells as rituals, gain a loyal apprentice etc, Clerics get a band of fanatical worshippers and a temple, rituals to raise the dead etc).

Those 'high level' abilities are not really designed for the combat encounter scenario - more as RP tools and out of combat utility to cement the players in the world.

By removing dailies, the expectation is 'per encounter' abilities are used every round, generally lasting the encounter, and 'daily encounter nova strikes' become a thing of the past.

It basically makes the game no longer dependent on 'X encounters per day' to balance and totally does away with the 5MWD (other than HP; but I'm considering a mechanic whereby instead of HD expenditure to heal, after every encounter if your HP are less than half but not at zero, they reset to half).

I'm doing a basic version now based on 5E but using the above design goals as my baseline. Will only use 4 classes to begin with (Fighter, Wizard, Rogue and Cleric). Each class will have Martial disciplines/ Schools of Magic/ Divine domains/ Roguish tricks that let any of those 4 classes be created as a 'Striker', 'Tank', 'Controller' or 'Leader' to varying degrees within the class.

Garthanos · Jul 12, 2019

Flamestrike said:
DMG, under 'variant resting'.

Its the Heroic Fantasy variant (Short rests 5 minutes, Long rests 1 hour).

yeh long rests being an hour is kind of weird feeling but the ability to vary rests with few impacts was something in 4e
and challenging without over challenging

Flamestrike said:
The Gritty realism variant turns SR's to 8 hours, and LR's to 1 whole week.

That was commonly suggested on the forums for 4e.

Flamestrike said:
We run Short rests as a few minutes long and largely hand-waved (quick swig of water, bind some wounds. map check and a breather) but limited to only 2 per long rest.

I find 2-3 x 1 hour breaks in a Dungeon level to be all too frequently jarring and gamist. I've had PCs literally sit down and attempt to camp (for an hour, naturally) in a Dungeon hallway before.

If I had my way with 5E I would have made ALL classes function on at will and per encounter abilities, with a recovery method for the 'per encounter' abilities for in encounter recovery (like the 3.5 ToB classes).

Effects would be limited in scope to spells and effects of 1st-4th level. The sort of spells that arent game wrecking.

you might be able to ritualize some of the rest of the magic.

Flamestrike said:
Fighters would be using stances, counters and maneuvers (just like ToB). Ditto Wizards, but they'd be spells instead of maneuvers, just using the same mechanic. Mage Armor or Mirror Image become basically 'stances'. Shield and Counterspell become 'counters'. Fireball and Sleep become 'maneuvers'.

I wouldn't have daily's (like 4E): those sorts of potent effects - in line with spells and effect of 5th-9th level - would be moved to at will 'out of combat' features (Fighters get to create a stronghold, or attract a special steed, or gain a band of myrmidons or gain Noble title and social perks etc, Wizards get to magically summon a tower, gain an army of undead/ summoned critters, cast potent Wish spells as rituals, gain a loyal apprentice etc, Clerics get a band of fanatical worshippers and a temple, rituals to raise the dead etc).

I made a versatile martial practice called Marshal Troops, for 4e that effectively enabled a lot of that... its in the same resource driven category as rituals so both mages doing the summoning of supernatural allies are in the same boat. I will make a followers feat to allow someone who isn't a martial archetype access (2 or 3 free uses daily of a very versatile practice). Technically someone might just use skills and serious effort and accomplish some of it unreliably or spend a lot more money and get mercenaries, knowing the practice makes it reliable and if you are the warlord you get a couple daily uses anyway. You can gather/guide or restore troops more cheaply and reliably with the practice. Mostly likely uses that do not get expensive (paying death fees to families) is to apply them in a skill challenge context (like having them set up night watch or forward observation)

Flamestrike said:
Those 'high level' abilities are not really designed for the combat encounter scenario - more as RP tools and out of combat utility to cement the players in the world.

By removing dailies, the expectation is 'per encounter' abilities are used every round, generally lasting the encounter, and 'daily encounter nova strikes' become a thing of the past.

It basically makes the game no longer dependent on 'X encounters per day' to balance and totally does away with the 5MWD (other than HP; but I'm considering a mechanic whereby instead of HD expenditure to heal, after every encounter if your HP are less than half but not at zero, they reset to half).

I'm doing a basic version now based on 5E but using the above design goals as my baseline. Will only use 4 classes to begin with (Fighter, Wizard, Rogue and Cleric). Each class will have Martial disciplines/ Schools of Magic/ Divine domains/ Roguish tricks that let any of those 4 classes be created as a 'Striker', 'Tank', 'Controller' or 'Leader' to varying degrees within the class.

Interesting thoughts.

Flamestrike · Jul 12, 2019

Garthanos said:
you might be able to ritualize some of the rest of the magic..

That's kind of the plan.

Plus turning equivalent stuff to high level Wizard spells into 'mundane' abilities for Martials.

Wizards at high levels might get access to abilities that allow things like long range teleporting, the ability to magically create a castle or tower or even their own Demi-plane from nothing, attract an apprentice, craft a golem, dimensional travel, the ability to create a clone or simulacrum, contact the outer planes or a forbidden library for information and advice, a reputation as a total bad-ass to gain buffs to social skills, summon armies of minions to aid them, craft magic items of great potency and so forth.

Basically do what they can do now... just not during encounters.

At the same time they'll learn more per encounter powers ('spells') that do different things, be able to have more 'ready' at the start of an encounter, and those powers will continue to scale.

Fighters at the same level will get access to similar stuff. They'll gain titles to land and a castle, or an army of mercenaries or myrmidons, a magical steed that can fly (or dimension hop), forge mighty weapons and armor, gain impressive social skill buffs due to being a total bad-ass and so forth.

Abilities similar to what Wizards get.

At the same time they'll learn more per encounter powers ('maneuvers'), be able to have more 'ready' at the start of an encounter, and those powers will continue to scale (extra attacks, ignore damage resistance, greater damage, move+attack+move, parry+riposte).

Re manouvers, I do want to be liberal with 'counters' and 'stances' to add a more dynamic feel to combats. 'Attack, parry... riposte' or 'Cast, counter... duel of wills' type stuff.

Garthanos · Jul 12, 2019

Flamestrike said:
D
By removing dailies, the expectation is 'per encounter' abilities are used every round, generally lasting the encounter, and 'daily encounter nova strikes' become a thing of the past.

That lasting the encounter thought caught my eye.

I was thinking a while back 4e had a number of abilities which maybe used against the heroic would be temporary
but a lot of them like hamstring would make more sense at least for the rest of the encounter.

Garthanos · Jul 12, 2019

Flamestrike said:
Fighters at the same level will get access to similar stuff. They'll gain titles to land and a castle, or an army of mercenaries or myrmidons, a magical steed that can fly (or dimension hop), forge mighty weapons and armor, gain impressive social skill buffs due to being a total bad-ass and so forth.

Abilities similar to what Wizards get.

I made a Peerless tracker martial practice where you can track the enemy and safely follow their path even taking short cuts that work for you instead of them it isn't instant teleport... but the main advantage of teleport isnt necessarily forestalling time passage, its often safe passage. Could add features to offset the Wizardly time thing like a big boost to surprise likelihood for the one who achieves this.

Flamestrike said:
At the same time they'll learn more per encounter powers ('maneuvers'), be able to have more 'ready' at the start of an encounter, and those powers will continue to scale (extra attacks, ignore damage resistance, greater damage, move+attack+move, parry+riposte).

Re manouvers, I do want to be liberal with 'counters' and 'stances' to add a more dynamic feel to combats. 'Attack, parry... riposte' or 'Cast, counter... duel of wills' type stuff.

fun less reaction binding to elements than 5e has might help