D&D General “‘Scantily Clad and Well Proportioned’: Sexism and Gender Stereotyping in the Gaming Worlds of TSR and Dungeons & Dragons.”

[Charlaquin]

I would have to say that some of the things you think are difficult/impossible to conceive in speculative fiction makes me sad.

How would you express a species as more warlike than humans?

 

[MGibster]

we could start talking about scantily clad orcs if you want

You had my interest, now you have my attention.

I don't really care if orcs are good or bad in D&D. That's in large part because I don't take D&D very seriously. It's a silly game and I'm happy to lean into the silliness. I've played orcs in World of Warcraft and love the orks from Warhammer Fantasy and 40k, but they have a lot of personality, which is something D&D orcs lack. But then none of the species in the PHB are all that interesting. D&D really relies on what we bring to the table to make any species interesting.

Orcs are actually a safer topic maybe?

I don't think it is.

 

[Charlaquin]

Hmmm...

I will need to look into this but I think our brains have a lot more neuroplasticity in adulthood than was once believed.

I take your point, but I think on a physiological level it is possible.

There is a lot of other things going on though. Most likely, strong protective parts that jump in and shut down this sort of learning when threat is perceived (whether actually there or not).

How we learn to protect ourselves as children tends to be how we do so in adulthood and it takes a lot of work to sort out what is actually healthy ways of managing stress.

Yeah, I got more into this in a later post, but really it’s less about neuroplasticity and more about desire to have one’s existing worldview challenged. Of course adults are fully capable of learning new skills. But, it takes a lot of buy-in, and a lot of adults are going to be disinclined towards forming new opinions of media they already have strong emotional investment in.

 

[Bedrockgames]

“Even more war and destruction” isn’t something beyond human capacity. So it sounds like you are indeed suggesting a restriction on the potential range of characterization - precluding the possibility of institutions, settled living, scientific rigor, trade, and art. As opposed to expansion of that potential range - having them behave in new ways humans do not.

I don't really see an issue with it. You can call it what you want I suppose. What I am interested in is if I find the idea compelling (not whether it expands into behaviors unseen in humans or not). I wouldn't call it a restriction though. An intensification perhaps. But that is how you are going to be discussing any features of human-like groups. Humans are intelligent, but I can imagine a species of human that are more intelligent or less intelligent than humans. And they would be banging in ways humans don't. There may be things humans don't generally resolve with violence, but they do resolve regularly with violence. And you can always have them do things humans don't. This need not be their only feature. But violence is something we understand and a lot of people find it interesting to have a race that is more violent and more warlike.

 

[Charlaquin]

Warlike is more about society. So I think that aspect is more pertinent to orcs as a group. But if we take it to mean a greater propensity for violence. I think it could look like a number of things. But on individual character level it might mean they rely heavily on violence for things human character or even characters would deal with through discussion or negotiation. It could mean don't ever piss them off. It could mean they mostly prefer to use force to solve problems the party faces. They might regularly be given to behavior that only the most extreme humans are given to. It depends. But you would have to sculpt it and play it. I honestly don' think it is that difficult to imagine though

But, like, those are all things some humans do. That’s not inhuman at all, it’s just a subset of human behavior.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Sure, we can have different baselines. I’d categorize that as different emphasis for flavor, more than “alien/inhuman” though. And again, fun to play with, as long as it isn’t leading to homogeneity of characterization.

Out of curiosity, how would you define "alien/inhuman" then? Because how I see it when I look our fellow animals is that they are not that different from us in many ways. They have similar feelings, they have similar instincts, though some stronger and some weaker than in us. They even reason in the same way than us, though most are pretty crap at it, but that is more like being a human child; a difference of degree not of kind. Yet they objectively are not human.

 

[Deset Gled]

How would you express a species as more warlike than humans?

I'd probably start by asking you to define what you mean by "warlike", since it's a very fuzzy term. Any answer I give, you can say "that's not warlike, that's just [adjective]".

After that, I'll go with the Buggers from Ender's Game as a starting point.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

we could start talking about scantily clad orcs if you want

That's how I like my orcs!

 

[Vaalingrade]

So much easier said than done, especially in a world where entertainment is dumbed down to the lowest common denominator and people unironically say "I just want to check my brain and enjoy it" when consuming media. We don't give tools for media literacy that are needed for critical thought, and that it's not necessary when all you want is to turn on Netflix and veg to whatever is on the screen.

Not even being 'dumbed down' as people call it helps this, btw.

I proudly write pulp. My work is just there for entertainment.

I have a character who explicitly says he's a scumbag, who hates himself for it --and not in the Rick Sanchez 'I turn everything into a wacky catchphrase' kind of way, who has been explicitly told and acknowledges that he needs to improve.

Guess who is by far my post popular and romanticized character and guess who people have complained about as he's become a less terrible person? And that improvement has thus far been 'is no longer a direct obstruction to his friends out of spite'.

 

[Steampunkette]

So here's the big thing for warlike orcs: Don't!

Don't make a "Species" more warlike than humans. That's dull and boring and annoying.

Make a CULTURE more warlike than the standard! And have it be Orcs and Hobgoblins and Ogres and anyone else they conscript or enslave along their way!

Including? NON-AGGRESSIVE ORC CULTURES that are forced to fight against their will by their new Orcish Overlords of the Black Hand!

Now you've got some deep emotional conflict, a regional conflict, allies in the enemy camp who can move around without being questioned too deeply but still be treated with suspicion or disdain, -and- you can have the local cultures be pissed about "Orcs" even though it's really -just- the Black Hand that are causing problems.

WAY more involved and engaging than "Orcs bad. Kill them."

Plus? You can make them Scantily Claaaaaad and flirty! Big burly orcs in thigh high boots with 6 inch stilletto heels going WAAAAGH for the Black Hand!