D&D General “‘Scantily Clad and Well Proportioned’: Sexism and Gender Stereotyping in the Gaming Worlds of TSR and Dungeons & Dragons.”

[FrozenNorth]

Wouldn't be the first

I tend to consider Spock as exhibit A as a character who often claims to be emotionless and rational but for whom it is pretty clearly a rationalization, as he almost exclusively comes to the same conclusion as a moderately empathetic human, and his “arguments” for why he is actually “being logical” come off as pretty weak (or just messing with Bones).

 

[Azzy]

I think it can be a range of things, anything from 'more warlike than man' to 'less warlike than man' to 'they almost always resolve conflict with violence'. This might not interest you. I find this enjoyable in a setting on occasion

Looks at human history up to the present day.... What does 'more warlike than man' even look like?

 

[CleverNickName]

I agreed with you on this point:

D&D needs to strike a balance because it is a game that is the flagship, so I don't expect it to cater to one particular vision of orcs.

But you lost me here:

I think it is a mistake to see one approach as somehow backwards or narrow and another as more advanced. You need the full spectrum of possibilities available to designers and fantasy writers, because these all have their use and function in creative endeavors like world building.

Expecting D&D to cater to more than one vision is not the same as expecting it to cater to all visions. There are points of view that are without merit, there are points of view that are hateful, even harmful. We absolutely can, and must, learn to spot the things that are hateful and harmful so that we can avoid/remove them from the hobby.

 

[niklinna]

I tend to consider Spock as exhibit A as a character who often claims to be emotionless and rational but for whom it is pretty clearly a rationalization, as he almost exclusively comes to the same conclusion as a moderately empathetic human, and his “arguments” for why he is actually “being logical” come off as pretty weak (or just messing with Bones).

It's pretty well established at several points in Star Trek canon (even the limited part I've seen) that Vulcans come by their supposed cool rationality through extensive training, discipline, and effort—not that they are just naturally cooly rational. So it doesn't suprise me at all to see them breaking in difficult circumstances. I am just thinking of the one scene at the beginning of one of the movies where the other Vulcan kids at school teased and bullied Spock, but there are many, many other exaple. In any case, it's no wonder Spock tried so much harder than anybody else to deny he had emotions even while overtly displaying them for all to see. (Not that this was established for the original series, of course.) In any case, Bones's teasing didn't help.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think it can be a range of things, anything from 'more warlike than man' to 'less warlike than man' to 'they almost always resolve conflict with violence'. This might not interest you. I find this enjoyable in a setting on occasion

I think you’d have a hard time characterizing a race as more warlike than humans, when war is a human invention. Again, you can make them less inclined towards peaceful conflict resolution, but then you’re just limiting the range of expression without getting any real benefit out of that restriction.

 

[Steampunkette]

Monkey Bone is great!

Oh, I wasn't saying "These are bad movies he did" I was just saying that these are two movies which didn't make any attempt to capture the Female Gaze. Unlike the Mummy or George of the Jungle.

In fact Bedazzled had the main character trying to invent new versions of himself that were "Female Gazey" in the flawed manner he understood the female gaze to exist as interpreted by Satan being as mean as she could with his banal surface level wishing that didn't address the glaring issues that he had, as a person, that he should've focused on.

For instance:

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I think you’d have a hard time characterizing a race as more warlike than humans, when war is a human invention. Again, you can make them less inclined towards peaceful conflict resolution, but then you’re just limiting the range of expression without getting any real benefit out of that restriction.

I don't know about war, but certainly we can conceive a species who is more aggressive and confrontational than humans? And one which is less so? (Which is not to say that every member of this aggressive species needs to be more aggressive than every human, but that their baseline aggression, what is viewed as "normal," is higher.)

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think you’d have a hard time characterizing a race as more warlike than humans, when war is a human invention. Again, you can make them less inclined towards peaceful conflict resolution, but then you’re just limiting the range of expression without getting any real benefit out of that restriction.

Well we are dealing with imaginary races though. I can imagine a race of beings more warlike than man. Quite easily in fact . And like I said, this might not appeal to you. It isn't even my cup of tea most of the time. But I do enjoy these kinds of settings and designing worlds like this from time to time. There is a reason people find it compelling

 

[Bedrockgames]

Expecting D&D to cater to more than one vision is not the same as expecting it to cater to all visions. There are points of view that are without merit, there are points of view that are hateful, even harmful. We absolutely can, and must, learn to spot the things that are hateful and harmful so that we can avoid/remove them from the hobby.

I would agree, if the content were truly hateful. I think where I object is when tropes are dismissed as a problem when there are lots of different ways to read them. I also think if you are just talking about having warlike orcs or orcs who represent humanity's warlike tendencies, that isn't hateful. I think something like that is fine in D&D (though at this point probably not great for a default as most people expect a broader range of orcs now)

 

[Bedrockgames]

Looks at human history up to the present day.... What does 'more warlike than man' even look like?

It would mean human history but with even more war and destruction. I mean I get that humans are warlike. I've read a lot of history. But humans also built institutions, civilization, developed sciences, trade, arts etc. I can imagine fictional beings who are more devoted to war and violence than humans