D&D 5E Double Dash

WaterRabbit · Jul 18, 2019

DM Dave1 said:
Sorry, not to nitpick... but ok I'm totally nitpicking... the bolded part above is way off. There is nothing easy about it.

Here are the results of a popular 10 mile road race. Only 27 out of 946 people ran faster than 10 miles per hour.

Here are the results of a 20 mile road race known as a Boston Marathon prep race. Only 6 out of 582 participants ran faster than 10 miles per hour.

These people are avid, gifted runners who train a lot. No one is JOGGING at 10mph for hours. Certainly not adventurers carrying gear who don't train at distances (at least I haven't had any of my players ever say "my character goes out for a quick 10 mile run" during most every rest or downtime opportunity).

Point being, short bursts of speed for under a minute are far far more plausible than maintaining that speed "easily for a few hours".

EDIT: in case anyone is looking for the RAW rather than some real world analogy, the PHB says characters can travel 4 miles in 1 hour at a fast pace... (p 181)

These are modern people that sit behind desks all day and occasionally do this. The Tarahumara which train all of their lives for running can do 200 miles in 2 days, for example. The Inca moved fresh fish from the ocean to Macho Picchu in a few hours. See also Apache Spirit Runners.

I never made the claim that any ole person can jog at a 10 mph for hours, but most adventurers are much much much more active than modern humans. When I was in track, people that could not maintain a 10 mph pace for a couple of hours did not make the long distance running team.

Also, most people that show up to run marathons are not in that good of shape and don't train for them. Having run quite a few I can easily attest to this. A 10 mph pace is a 6 minute mile. Most humans cannot run a 10 minute mile. However, in the time frames we are talking about for most combats, 4x and 5x running speeds for adventures are not out of line. I don't think I have ever played a D&D combat that took 10 minutes of game time.

WaterRabbit · Jul 18, 2019

Xeviat said:
I feel like few are seeing that I'm talking about an interaction between the bonus action dashes and running rules I'm adding. It comes down to "do I want to have to build a sprinter with cunning action, or something like it, or do I want to modify that in some way first".

Is Usain Bolt a Rogue or Monk? Or not, basically.

And yes, I'm approaching this from a very simulationist angle, and 5E doesn't currently do this, but it's part of a larger effort to expand the skill system. It's not meant to be a nerf to the rogue; an expanded skill system is only going to benefit the rogue (and I'm using it to bake in some nerfs to casters, so there).

Casters have been so nerfed in this version of the game compared to previous ones, I don't see much need to further nerf them. Get rid of the twink builds based on Warlock and it all good.

Xeviat · Jul 19, 2019

WaterRabbit said:
Casters have been so nerfed in this version of the game compared to previous ones, I don't see much need to further nerf them. Get rid of the twink builds based on Warlock and it all good.

I more mean I'm expressly building these new rules to not really give them to casters, in a way. They have their toys.

Flamestrike · Jul 19, 2019

Ovinomancer said:
Yes, lack of STR is a small hinderance for athletics, but it doesn't address that fighters, who can get Remarkable Athlete, are 1/3 slower than rogues.

But they're not.

Rogues are more manouverable in combat.

Cunning action [Dash] isnt some objective measure of a creatures overall speed; it's simply a class feature that models a Rogues greater manouverability in combat situations.

In a leg race a Rogue with 30' movement speed is no faster than a Fighter with a 30' movement speed. The winner of such a race would be simply determined by an opposed Str [Athletics] check, unless it was a marathon or endurance event in which case it would likely be a Con [Athletics] check.

Ovinomancer · Jul 19, 2019

Flamestrike said:
But they're not.

Rogues are more manouverable in combat.

Cunning action [Dash] isnt some objective measure of a creatures overall speed; it's simply a class feature that models a Rogues greater manouverability in combat situations.

In a leg race a Rogue with 30' movement speed is no faster than a Fighter with a 30' movement speed. The winner of such a race would be simply determined by an opposed Str [Athletics] check, unless it was a marathon or endurance event in which case it would likely be a Con [Athletics] check.

Not if you run the race in combat rounds. There the fighter loses badly.

This is my gripe, really, that the issue is a mechanical artifact others defend by pointing out cases where it doesn't exist. As for rogues are nimble, this is very well covered by being able to dash as a bonus action after doing something else. Take away double dash and they're still super nimble and mobile characters.

And, again, I'm arguing from a position of displeasurr soooo strong I've done nothing about it over four campaigns but post here.

DND_Reborn · Jul 19, 2019

Two options to include instead of Dash to cunning action:

Misdirect
You can use your bonus action to choose one opponent you can see, and the next attack that opponent makes against you has disadvantage.

Free Movement:
You can use your bonus action to ignore difficult terrain until the start of your next turn.

These would still represent the added mobility a Rogue has in combat without bolstering their overall movement. The first for their defensive evasiveness and such, the second for more "parkour-like" ability to move.

Thoughts? Too useful? I sort of like them, but would have to run them by the group. Since we already have house-rules for running and sprinting that involve bonus actions, the added Dash ability of the Rogue via Cunning Action is not nearly as useful.

Xeviat · Jul 19, 2019

dnd4vr said:
Two options to include instead of Dash to cunning action:

Misdirect
You can use your bonus action to choose one opponent you can see, and the next attack that opponent makes against you has disadvantage.

Free Movement:
You can use your bonus action to ignore difficult terrain until the start of your next turn.

These would still represent the added mobility a Rogue has in combat without bolstering their overall movement. The first for their defensive evasiveness and such, the second for more "parkour-like" ability to move.

Thoughts? Too useful? I sort of like them, but would have to run them by the group. Since we already have house-rules for running and sprinting that involve bonus actions, the added Dash ability of the Rogue via Cunning Action is not nearly as useful.

I've been looking at adding some extra options to the Rogue's cunning action. Basically, things you can do with a skill check as an action, you'll be able to do with cunning action as a bonus action. This includes an Aim action I'm writing.

AIM
As an action, make a Wisdom (Perception) check against a target you can see's AC. If you succeed, you gain advantage on your next attack against it you make before the end of your next turn.

This will allow ranged rogues to gain their sneak attack more without being stealthy snipers.

DND_Reborn · Jul 19, 2019

Xeviat said:
I've been looking at adding some extra options to the Rogue's cunning action. Basically, things you can do with a skill check as an action, you'll be able to do with cunning action as a bonus action. This includes an Aim action I'm writing.

AIM
As an action, make a Wisdom (Perception) check against a target you can see's AC. If you succeed, you gain advantage on your next attack against it you make before the end of your next turn.

This will allow ranged rogues to gain their sneak attack more without being stealthy snipers.

Well, they can also gain the sneak attack feature with the ranged weapons if the target has an enemy within 5 feet of it. But anyway...

TWF Rogues use their bonus actions for their additional second-weapon attack, this would give them a combat-related use for their bonus action with ranged attacks. I might take the check out of the equation just to speed up play.

While I kind of like the idea, I would be worried about things like Elven Accuracy kicking in with a Champion-Fighter-Archery-Fighting-Style build. Even more crits with better chances and now you are doubling sneak attack dice as well. Seems to edge towards broken in that instance IMO.

Blue · Jul 19, 2019

Ovinomancer said:
My design problem: rogues get to run fast while fighters don't.

Alternate view: Rogues are designed and positioned as skirmishers* with additional movement possibilities over fighters, so should have more mobility over short periods

*Citation: Class description fluff, Cunning action's disengage and dash as bonus actions, Scout's Skirmisher, Swashbuckler's Fancy Footwork, other class features in vein.

When you take that, the issue isn't Rogue's being faster than the fighter in combat - that's intentional.

Now, if there is still a problem, it's using (double) dash over long periods of time to do greater long distance running. Except that Dash is listed as an action you take in combat. So now really the issue is with the ruling that many DMs take that Dash (and therefore double dash) are usable outside of combat.

Ovinomancer · Jul 19, 2019

Blue said:
Alternate view: Rogues are designed and positioned as skirmishers* with additional movement possibilities over fighters, so should have more mobility over short periods

*Citation: Class description fluff, Cunning action's disengage and dash as bonus actions, Scout's Skirmisher, Swashbuckler's Fancy Footwork, other class features in vein.

When you take that, the issue isn't Rogue's being faster than the fighter in combat - that's intentional.

Now, if there is still a problem, it's using (double) dash over long periods of time to do greater long distance running. Except that Dash is listed as an action you take in combat. So now really the issue is with the ruling that many DMs take that Dash (and therefore double dash) are usable outside of combat.

And all of your points are still true if you can't double dash.