Pathfinder 2E XP for Gold

zztong · Jul 19, 2019

amethal said:
Does the gold effectively have to be wasted in order to gain XP? Also, does it matter how you got the gold in the first place (i.e. does it have to be from adventuring)?

It seemed to me to hearken back to various systems where you paid for training. The costs were coin and time.

amethal said:
However, it doesn't really matter how mathematically rigorous or elegant your system is, since if I keep having to choose between a cool magic item or gaining a level I'm going to choose to play a different game instead, one where I can get both.

You're certainly free to reject a game based on its system -- I do it all the time -- regardless of if there is a method to the madness. Back in the days when I encountered such systems, the settings did not usually including buying magic items. You had what you found or made. In some games, all magic items were "invested" with magic giving them charges. Essentially, there were no permanent magic items.

Colder · Jul 19, 2019

I found something on the paizo forums posted by someone who got their books early.

CapnZapp · Jul 19, 2019

Nice find. That means they've tweaked the expected character wealth somewhat.

I'll update the tables when I find the time.

Edit: Nope, the values have stayed the same. This table (10-10) is for new player characters joining an existing group - what stuff should you give to a brand new character starting above level 1?

Colder · Jul 19, 2019

CapnZapp said:
Nice find. That means they've tweaked the expected character wealth somewhat.

I'll update the tables when I find the time.

Yeah, from what I hear they're moving to a silver standard to keep gold values from getting ridiculous when making expensive purchases.

CapnZapp · Jul 20, 2019

Colder said:
Yeah, from what I hear they're moving to a silver standard to keep gold values from getting ridiculous when making expensive purchases.

Well, already in the Playtest you start out with silver.

The numbers in the picture aren't drastically different from the playtest. Just different. Like, IIRC, the first three levels giving 15, 20, 25 gold instead of 8, 16, 30 gold; the table ending in 20,000 gold instead of 55,000 gold or some such. That's a tweak, not a change

I'd be interested to know if there was a discussion around these tables. That is, have Paizo ever hinted at why they'd bother "massaging" these numbers?

Colder · Jul 20, 2019

CapnZapp said:
Well, already in the Playtest you start out with silver.

The numbers in the picture aren't drastically different from the playtest. Just different. Like, IIRC, the first three levels giving 15, 20, 25 gold instead of 8, 16, 30 gold; the table ending in 20,000 gold instead of 55,000 gold or some such. That's a tweak, not a change

I'd be interested to know if there was a discussion around these tables. That is, have Paizo ever hinted at why they'd bother "massaging" these numbers?

I meant that in relation to PF1 and 5e, where it actually is a change. I didn't know how much you'd sunk your teeth into the playtest rules.

CapnZapp · Jul 31, 2019

I can add I finally understood the PF2 experience system the other day. Some helpful user over at Paizo forums.

It's not particularly to my liking, which makes it even easier to dump for a "traditional" XP system.

With xp per level requirements that are *exponential* - you pretty much need to have that to make xp for gold work

CapnZapp · Aug 3, 2019

Okay, with the final rulebook let's clear one thing out the way: the treasure amounts are very similar (if not identical) to the playtest. So my tables above stand.

CapnZapp · Aug 3, 2019

CapnZapp said:
It strikes me the value of permanent items you find is considerable compared to the xp you need to level up (which are set by the amount of "loose gold" you gain).

It seems any campaign interested in xp-for-gold should consider increasing the ratio of gold to items in any loot, to make it less appealing to sell off items in order to level up faster.

After having thought about this, I have a new (better?) suggestion - increase the xp amounts you need to level up.

I'm talking about the table that currently reads like this:

Level Required
1
2 10
3 30
4 60
5 110
6 190
7 320
8 500
9 750
10 1100
11 1600
12 2300
13 3300
14 4800
15 7100
16 10000
17 15000
18 23000
19 35000
20 55000

That is, in order to level up from 5 to 6 you need to go from 110 to 190 xp, an increase of +80 xp. (Unlike the core rulebook system, you don't ever subtract any xp as you level up)

Now let's say you carry around a level 4 permanent item. Let's say an Animal Staff valued at 90 gp. If you were to sell this at half market price, you could spend 45 gp to gain 45 xp - more than half you need to level up!

Do you think players will be tempted to off-load their items in order to rise through the levels? Well, I can't blame you - at least for the lowest levels, you gain much more survivability by gaining a level than any single pesky thingamagog can ever provide.

---

Let's say we simply double the xp requirements. Now, you need to go from 220 to 380 xp, an increase of +160 xp. Selling that staff still nets you 45 xp, but now that's only a quarter of what you need.

Maybe this enough to make the players keep their items. At least it's a start.

---

And oh. Of course, you double the loot monsters drop so the speed of levelling remains the same. That is:

Level Gold per monster
1 2
2 4
3 6
4 10
5 16
...

becomes

Level Gold per monster
1 4
2 8
3 12
4 20
5 32
...

---

In summary, I believe I have found a much more elegant solution than having to mess around with sell prices, virtual currencies and store credit.

In short, you always get half market price, you always get real solid gold, only each xp is worth half as much, so in practice the result is the same:

You gain more bang for your buck if you spend your gold on items than if you carouse it up on xp.

CapnZapp · Aug 3, 2019

Note: to be clear, I still expect any 1st level hero to pursue xp over all other considerations. The difference between level 1 and 2 is the greatest survivability gain in the entire game, so there's nothing untoward by the notion that leveling up from first level is (much) better than any item - especially since level 1 or 2 items are all you're likely to find

I fully expect it to take a couple of levels before the players start to seriously consider buying items instead of xp, even with the half rate detailed by my previous post (not that you should tell them the rate is halved).

Maybe as soon as level 3, maybe as late as level 5, I honestly do not know. (Feel free to report back if you test an xp for gold system though!