D&D 5E Thoughts on this article about Black Culture & the D&D team dropping the ball?

I keep wanting to chime into this thread and have a careful discussion of some of the things that I found a bit lacking in the article linked in the OP. But this constant stream of dismissiveness and denial just make it seem inappropriate. I find this exhausting and it's not even my concerns that are being treated as if they are some intellectual abstractions that we can discuss in the parlor over tea and agree to disagree and then retire to our chambers for an evening's rest, leaving the cares of the world behind. Tra-la.

I'm sorry that's sarcastic; I'm just mystified at how this level of disconnect can exist in an era when so much information is available.

Lychee, it's not entirely fair of me to pick on your post, but it just happens to be the currently most recent (though maybe not by the time I actually get to post this). And before I say more, just to be clear, no, I do not think you are a bad person.

But

Lychee of the Exch. said:

I'm only partly defined by what others think of me. If I allowed

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Yeah, see this is a problem already. We're really not talking about things that people 'allow'. We're talking about things that people have had, and are still having done to them not only without their permission, but over their objections - at least when they are allowed to even object.

myself to be constantly offended by some badly acted portrayal of me - more precisely, by some badly acted portrayal of the people or the community I'm supposed to be part of - I would allow myself to always and thoroughly be (re)defined by others than me.

In spite of what I just wrote I still get regularly offended, of course, for various reasons, but I strive to not let myself wallow in self-righteous indignation at the perceived injustices of the world because, well... it's bad for my heart and for my soul.

To let oneself be angry all the time, as a fraction of some members of minorities in the USA do, and lash out constantly at the world, in an accusatory way, is not healthy, nor productive. I find it disempowering, in fact.

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I am glad that the affronts that you have experienced have been things that you could shake off. But you have used some language here that is really kind of awful, because you are insinuating things about others' experiences. First of all 'constantly' (underlined no less) and 'all the time' are completely unjustified hyperbole that paints the people you are talking about as sort of perpetually agitated without cause. Unless you mean being offended whenever something offensive happens. In which case, well, duh. That's sort of by definition, not something to be called out with underlined adverbs.

Then 'self-righteous indignation' and 'perceived injustices'. If those are good descriptions of your own experiences, that's fine. But applied to someone else, 'self-righteous' is a belittling and dismissive term. Not cool. And 'perceived injustice' carries the strong connotation that whether the situation in question is unjust might be a matter of opinion or point of view. Other people might be experiencing things that no sane, reasonable person could regard as just. Substituting your experience for theirs is not the way to have a respectful conversation.

And if you are now in your head formulating a response that includes something like, "But I didn't mean that.", please stop. Because a) if you don't mean it, then don't say it; and b) if you are thinking about how to respond, you're not paying attention to what I'm saying.

I'm of the opinion that we can not avoid the possibility of anything to cause offense.

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Literally true, but absolutely not an excuse to be careless or unmindful.

Some people want to be offended, and they will be, no matter what you do.

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Perhaps, perhaps not. But I'm not sure how you would know that someone "wants to be offended" unless they told you so. The fact that there are things that offend others but not you is really not an indication that they will be offended no matter what you do. There would need to be a very clear-headed discussion of both sides of numerous cases before you could claim such a pattern.

I'm a writer myself, and I don't go out of my way to offend people,

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I hope you are not meaning to imply that that is sufficient. It is not.

but I refuse to censor myself to avoid offending some vague and ill-defined minorities ("people of color", "black men", "Jews", etc.).

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This seems to be just tossing some pejorative adjectives at people in order to claim that that somehow justifies being careless about their feelings. Well, they're ill-defined, so it must be ok to offend them. What?

Not being a racist myself,

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Well, for myself, I do my best, but generally I think that it is other people who'll be best able to tell whether I am succeeding at treating everyone equitably.

I find these minorities ill-defined, and stifling in terms of the individual.

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Um, what? Who is being stifled here? I'm not clear how it could be you. But if it's someone else, this kind of sounds like something for them to work out. (?)

Are all person of dark hues supposed to be "black", for example, and are they supposed to be affected in the exact same way by the history of slavery in the USA ?

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No. So what? At this point, you seem to have descended into FUD. This is a rhetorical question that seems logically connected to the matter at hand only in that it involves persons of color, but is made to sound as if it casts doubt on ... something.

There is definitely room for improvement. ToA IS improvement to me, and not being able to see it diminishes its impact, and perhaps lessens the good will of its authors.

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I think most people commenting have acknowledged that ToA does represent an improvement. Many people also seem to feel that WoTC missed an opportunity to do much better. That was my general impression anyway; I'm happy to be corrected if that's not so.

Re:improvement - I don't believe in "races". It's a very flawed and outdated concept, and I think the world would be better if we learned to discard it - though I don't think that will happen for some centuries from now.

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Yeah, I understand the sentiment, but the existence of that ideal doesn't change the present situation. And dropping that in here sounds like you are just dismissing current problems - if we could just all become enlightened and not "believe in races", then everything would be ok. To borrow an analogy from an article that I read today, this is like racking up a huge credit card debt, then pledging to not charge anymore with the expectation that that will stop the bills from coming.

I don't think the concept of privilege - as in the privilege of the white man, I suppose - is a sound one either, though I acknowledge that it is for you.

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Oh, my. The only thing that I can think is that you don't understand what is meant by privilege in this context. If you are a white male of even modest means living in the U.S. (which I am), you are one of the luckiest people to ever walk the surface of this earth. And if you are not grateful for that, and humble enough to admit that largely you just lucked out, I just don't know what to say. Compared with other folks, you have, relatively, so many opportunities and so few things to worry about it is kind of mind-boggling. Life never provides guarantees, but your chances are comparatively truly outstanding.

I would say that you and me we understand the worldview of each other, to an extent - and that our worldviews happen to be orthogonal on some important points. I don't think that makes either one of us a bad person. And I don't think you think it does either, and for that I'm grateful

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Optimism is not a bad thing, I guess, but in general I think it is probably more respectful to just let the other person tell you what they think rather than making a supposition.

The only complaint I don't get is this concept of "mixing so many African cultures together". Hello? This is D&D, where a Viking Barbarian, a Celtic Druid, an English Minstrel, a Teutonic Knight Templar (who actually worships Zeus) and a Shaolin Monk all go into a dungeon to fight Greek Minotaurs, Norse Frost Giants, Egyptian mummies, Japanese oni, Arabian djinn, and Jewish golems.

D&D doesn't mix cultures together as much as smash them apart and stitch them back together using the best pieces. Xanathar's Guide is going to import the samurai out of feudal Japan and stick in prominently in this soup next. All of these characters and monsters are neighbors. They all manage to speak the same tongue (Common), and use the same economic standard (gold coins).

So I can understand there might be some concern that Chult is kinda a mix of different African cultures, but really, all of Faerun suffers this problem. D&D is a monomyth. It combines the most interesting things of different areas and makes them all live side-by-side. I wager if we ever get to Zakhara, Maztica, or Kara-tur, the same criticisms will be leveled about their treatment of Arabian, Mezo-American, and Asian cultures.

D&D simply isn't nuanced enough to break things down beyond broad-brushes. If it were, Chessenta would want their centaurs back...

[MENTION=6857506]Harzel[/MENTION] ... Just wanted to say you nailed my thoughts about @Lychee of the Exch on the head... but honestly in a much more eloquent and less hostile way than I could have. Thanks.

Remathilis said:

The only complaint I don't get is this concept of "mixing so many African cultures together". Hello? This is D&D, where a Viking Barbarian, a Celtic Druid, an English Minstrel, a Teutonic Knight Templar (who actually worships Zeus) and a Shaolin Monk all go into a dungeon to fight Greek Minotaurs, Norse Frost Giants, Egyptian mummies, Japanese oni, Arabian djinn, and Jewish golems.

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You really don't get that giving some cultures this kind of treatment is more fraught than others? For starters, it's probably worth being more sensitive to the cultures that have almost always been given this treatment and only this treatment (along with its baggage train of associated clichés and stereotypes), when they're acknowledged at all, and where that specific treatment is part of a very old pattern of systemic and structural racism toward a marginalized group. You don't get that rolling out that same old pattern would make the game less welcoming to people who identify with those marginalized groups?

Liberal self-loathing white guilt creates these issues. //firstworldproblems lol....its all silliness. Just play the game. If you are black and want a job designing games and want to focus on black culture, go apply for one. Probably a bad move though because most gamers are white and won't be that receptive to black culture games. But go for it. Whatever. But please quit whining.

Greg Benage said:

You really don't get that giving some cultures this kind of treatment is more fraught than others? For starters, it's probably worth being more sensitive to the cultures that have almost always been given this treatment and only this treatment (along with its baggage train of associated clichés and stereotypes), when they're acknowledged at all, and where that specific treatment is part of a very old pattern of systemic and structural racism toward a marginalized group. You don't get that rolling out that same old pattern would make the game less welcoming to people who identify with those marginalized groups?

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Then what is the alternative?

Does Chult become based solely on a single African tribe during a specific time frame? Does it become just another part of the Sword Coast that has knights and castles and full-plate, just everyone with darker skin? Does it get a culture unlike anything on Earth (akin to Wakanda in Marvel)? Does Chult just never get another mention other than a paragraph in a hypothetical FR campaign setting in an "also exists" section (along with Kara Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara)? Does Chult stop having human culture is instead only filled with fantasy races (like aarakrocka and tabaxi) to avoid cultural stereotyping altogether?

Remathilis said:

Then what is the alternative?

Does Chult become based solely on a single African tribe during a specific time frame? Does it become just another part of the Sword Coast that has knights and castles and full-plate, just everyone with darker skin? Does Chult just never get another mention other than a paragraph in a hypothetical FR campaign setting in an "also exists" section (along with Kara Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara)? Does Chult stop having human culture is instead only filled with fantasy races (like aarakrocka and tabaxi) to avoid cultural stereotyping altogether?

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Well I think one possible answer could be to make it explicit. So instead of the assumption being that the authors mashed this stuff up because they didn't know any better and are just following along in the footsteps of previous media portrayals... they instead are creating a fantasy world that is purposefully drawing from a wide range of African cultures to create something new... For an example of what I mean here is the intro from Spears of the Dawn...

What Is This Game?
Spears of the Dawn is a game that provides classic old-school
fantasy adventure in an African-flavored setting. Just as many
early role-playing games created compound worlds of mixed
medieval European elements, so Spears of the Dawn creates an
African pastiche built for accessible fun at the table. This is not
a game about historical Africa any more than early fantasy RPGs
were games about historical Europe. Instead, like its predecessors,
it tries to use elements of history and legend to build a fun and
workable setting for flavorful adventure.

EDIT: The fact that he addresses this shows an awareness on Kevin's part about the subject matter and some of the issues around using it for gaming material...

On another note I'm curious, has anyone read through or purchased the Southlands campaign setting by Kobold Press and if so what did you think of it?

*Deleted by user*

Remathilis said:

The only complaint I don't get is this concept of "mixing so many African cultures together". Hello? This is D&D, where a Viking Barbarian, a Celtic Druid, an English Minstrel, a Teutonic Knight Templar (who actually worships Zeus) and a Shaolin Monk all go into a dungeon to fight Greek Minotaurs, Norse Frost Giants, Egyptian mummies, Japanese oni, Arabian djinn, and Jewish golems.

D&D doesn't mix cultures together as much as smash them apart and stitch them back together using the best pieces. Xanathar's Guide is going to import the samurai out of feudal Japan and stick in prominently in this soup next. All of these characters and monsters are neighbors. They all manage to speak the same tongue (Common), and use the same economic standard (gold coins).

So I can understand there might be some concern that Chult is kinda a mix of different African cultures, but really, all of Faerun suffers this problem. D&D is a monomyth. It combines the most interesting things of different areas and makes them all live side-by-side. I wager if we ever get to Zakhara, Maztica, or Kara-tur, the same criticisms will be leveled about their treatment of Arabian, Mezo-American, and Asian cultures.

D&D simply isn't nuanced enough to break things down beyond broad-brushes. If it were, Chessenta would want their centaurs back...

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It can be hard to see what’s going on when speaking in such broad terms…

In Forgotten Realms. There isn’t just one kind of white or one kind of Asian culture that stands as an analogue for all of Europe or Asia. The Viking Barbarian aesthetic is a big part of the Ruathym. The Teutonic Knight is part of Corymyr's flavor.The Moonshae drip with Celtic flavor. Religion drawns upon Celtic, Norse, Greek, Roman, and other influences. The history, traditions, languages, and culture of Europe are spread across an entire continent in the form of Faerun.
Shou is north-western China/Mongolia and Tai'Lung is more south-eastern China, and then there's Wa or Kozakura depending on what kind of Japan you want, and other lands for other parts of Asia. It’s religions are as varied. The history, traditions, languages, and culture of Asia are spread across an entire continent in the form of Kara Tur.

When it comes to Africa, you're kind of stuck with Chult. Where do I go for Zulu inspired settled agricultural people with an expansionist warrior culture of the veldt? Chult’s closest are some jungle tribesman. Well what about pastoral Masai herdsmen? Chult’s closest approximation is also jungle tribesmen. Mali style empire built on cavalry and trade across the sahara desert and western half of the continent? Foreign trade city bordering the jungles of Chult. Maybe something like the astrologists of Religion is a Conan-like primordial god-monster with vague mentions to various undefined spirits. The only really safe place in this land is the foreign founded city mirroring European colonies. The history, traditions, languages, and culture of the entire continent of Africa are condensed into a singular jungle island/pinensula in Chult. Not only that, but the rest of the Forgotten Realms doesn't look like it takes much of anything in the form of influence from sub-Saharan African cultures so it doesn't really smash them apart and stitch them back together in other contexts. There's no sub-saharan African monsters wandering around the Sword Coast and elsewhere or anything like Yoruba-inspired deities in the pantheon of the Dale Lands.


If we applied the Chultan treatment to Faerun…

Norse Vikings, Teutonic Knights, Celtic Druids, Roman Centurions, would all come from a single island/peninsula made of forests and misty moors, populated by Hollywood style Celtic people who all speak pseudo-French, and all practice a pseudo-Catholic religion. The land would be portrayed as dangerous and the only safe place would be a single trade-city established by Foreigners from an eastern empire vaguely resembling the Caliphate/Ottoman empire.

If we applied the Chultan treatment to Kara Tur…

Shao Lin Monks, Japanese Samurai, Warring states Warlords, nomadic northern Asians, south-Asian Kingdoms, etc would all be from a single island/peninsula populated by Hollywood style Japanese people, covered in mountains and bamboo forests, all speak pseudo-Cantonese and they would all worship Buddha. The only safe place in this dangerous savage land would be the safe port established by foreign powers reminiscent of British owned Hong Kong or Admiral Perry’s fleet.

On the flip-side, Nyambe: African Adventures and Spears of the Dawn would be a good example of what you’d get where you to apply Forgotten Realms’ usual approach to Europe/Asia to Chult.