D&D 5E As a DM, can I just say, Screw Paladins :)

Gwarok · May 12, 2017

BookBarbarian said:
Also you have discovered why Harry Dresden feels a lot better with Michael Carpenter at his side.

Lastly, so what's going to happen after the Death Knight reconstitutes?

Funny you should say that, as my brother has just recently, since we played that adventure, started reading Dresden, and the comparison lept out at him as well. As far as the Death Knight goes, it's job was to protect the Heart of Fire, and the PC's rescued him from the Dao, so there is no bad blood there. It has since been released from it's contract and returned to the afterlife.

On a side note, the Dao fortress they attacked was modeled after a zone in the game Everquest, The Hole. I needed an undead tower in there to stay with the original map, and it all worked out quite well.

Incidentally, the Heart of Fire is actually the leader of the Azer. I'm coming up with a campaign story arc where the Azer are finally making their move to destroy the Efreet, namely conquer the City of Brass. The Azer needed him to run their forges where they are whipping up an army of manufactured Animated Suits, Helmed Horrors, and Iron Golems, something they have been doing for a long time and are about to unleash upon the Efreet. Of course they've enlisted the help of some Gold Dragons to counter the many Red ones the Efreet Sultan has, and several other races who have long felt the lash of the Efreeti tyranny and wish to end their legacy of slavery and pillaging. Plus they built the city and know it's weak points. Not sure exactly how I'm going to pull it off, but a battle for the City of Brass is a pretty big event as it's one of the biggest cities in the planes and home to LOTS of very powerful entities.

vander79 · May 12, 2017

Most Paladins are MAD, and have to dump dexterity if they use strength weapons. Target them with dexterity save attacks like fireball/lightning bolt. Even if they do save, they'll still take damage.

Also, craft the battlefield to force him to spend time climbing to his enemy or running around. Utilize his lack of ranged attack options.

Limit their long rests to burn through their resources

If that fails you can make some changes that my DM has used: He removed all of the smite spells and changed divine smite to 1d8 per spell level instead of starting at 2d8 at level one.

iserith · May 12, 2017

After a night of the PCs just steamrolling everything because I was rolling so terribly, I have a splint-wearing, maul-wielding ogre corner the dwarf paladin. It's toward the end of the session and I need to get my pound of flesh or else I will lose street cred.

I throw the bones. A crit - the only one all night - for 38 damage!

Except the bard had made a vicious dick joke the turn before which gave the ogre disadvantage. So instead it was an 18 and thus a miss. It would have dropped the paladin, but instead he lived. Truly, the favor of the gods was upon him. (And the bard helped.)

CC: [MENTION=6801219]Lanliss[/MENTION], [MENTION=6801813]Valmarius[/MENTION]

Gwarok · May 12, 2017

vander79 said:
Most Paladins are MAD, and have to dump dexterity if they use strength weapons. Target them with dexterity save attacks like fireball/lightning bolt. Even if they do save, they'll still take damage.

Also, craft the battlefield to force him to spend time climbing to his enemy or running around. Utilize his lack of ranged attack options.

Limit their long rests to burn through their resources

If that fails you can make some changes that my DM has used: He removed all of the smite spells and changed divine smite to 1d8 per spell level instead of starting at 2d8 at level one.

Those are all certainly options, but I really don't like specifically tailoring encounters just to screw with a class. What you said is what I'd do to challenge any party. My particular beef was with how Paladins really really shut down undead, especially vampires, but then again, that is precisely what holy knights are supposed to do. Gotta have somebody to call when Zombies are trying to take over the world.

merwins · May 12, 2017

Gwarok said:
Those are all certainly options, but I really don't like specifically tailoring encounters just to screw with a class.

Agreed. I might do this a little, in subtle ways, just to keep the players on their toes, but I wouldn't design adventures to eliminate their advantages. When a PC feels overpowered to me, I rely on description to make the "player" more paranoid about what's going on.

A character might easily defeat an encounter, but the player doesn't always believe it.

Just as an aside, I've been trying to figure out why people hate paladins so much. I'm playing one now. It's okay, but not hideously overpowered as far as I can tell. I've seen rogues that are much more effective in combat, and as was stated earlier, paladins seem to suck at range.

Oofta · May 12, 2017

epithet said:
Your fun is bad and wrong.

A gnome with a rapier is proof that the gods do not love us, and want us to be miserable.

What about a gnomish paladin with a rapier?

lowkey13 · May 12, 2017

*Deleted by user*

Bacon Bits · May 12, 2017

I'm sure the paladin helped a ton, but it shouldn't be that surprising. If your party has reasonable access to magic items and optimizes even moderately, a CR 19 at level 13 really isn't a big deal. It's an issue with most high CR creatures not being as tough as their value implies. Non-ancient dragons are almost a joke if they can't fly, for example, and high level demons only have good defenses against spells with saves.

Oofta · May 12, 2017

I try to not go out of my way to nerf characters people are having fun with (although I do use point buy to avoid the super stat monsters, which is part of the problem).

But that doesn't mean you can't challenge them. In addition to the other advice, I've done a few things to mess with players and paladins

have the vampire use their dominate ability to have innocents and friends attack the paladin.
Give the vampires protection from good spells.
Throw more mobs, and swarms.
Have multiple waves of bad guys.
Set up environmental hazards.
Set up a moral dilemma for the paladin and see how they react. If they do something that violates their oath, take away some abilities (but give him a way to get them back).

Something to remember is that if you're using the encounter build guidelines from the DMG is that they're just guidelines. I sometimes have "second waves" in the wings that I will bring in if necessary to create the scene that I want.

The important thing is not to get into a Player vs DM mentality. It might be fine to curse the paladin as long as it makes sense for the story and it's fun for the player as well as for you.

If you really think the paladin is overpowered and can't work around it, talk to your player and see if you can't work together and come up with a solution.

Oofta · May 12, 2017

lowkey13 said:
Look friend, I have a simple, easy-to-understand solution that will solve your problems.

Just end the Paladin class. Do it. Do it now. Hear me now and thank me later.

And if gnomes and rapiers are the unfortunate collateral damage of your divine wrath? Well .... so be it.

I think I just found my next character. Sir Pokes-A-Lot!