Brom's Cover Art For Modiphius' Upcoming CONAN RPG

BrockBallingdark · Jan 18, 2016

Water Bob said:
Or, better yet, why should Conan fight more numerous, more powerful foes and have to overcome more obstacles in the middle of the adventure because one of his companions, who is no longer with Conan, attempted to be heroic two days ago in another town? Because that's how the meta-game point system works. A player in one game session could constantly try to be heroic, piling up the points in the button jar, and the GM can wait to use those points three game sessions later, when the players are in a totally different part of the story, and the player who generated most of the button points didn't even show up for the current session.

As good looking as that cover is, I'm going to have to pass on the game.

Wow, this sounds even better than I thought previously! It makes it grittier and tough, love that for Conan. No worries Water Bob, I'll cover your purchase by buying two of the Core books.

mrm1138 · Jan 18, 2016

Water Bob said:
A player can have his character be "heroic" by buying extra dice to throw on a task...

Y'know, even if I had read the playtest rules, I'm not sure that I would have been able to pick this particular mechanic out. Perhaps it's because I only got into gaming more recently, but this just seems like a variation on Savage Worlds' bennies, FATE points, or D&D 5e's inspiration. And as far as I can see, mechanics like these really only break immersion for as long as it takes to get used to them. Rolling dice for initiative, an attack, or a skill check is also a meta-game mechanic, but once you're used to it, it doesn't really break immersion anymore once a GM asks for a die roll.

I guess when I think of meta-game rules, I think more of the act break in Fiasco where the book literally tells you to, out of character, discuss where the story has been and where it's heading.

Water Bob · Jan 18, 2016

mrm1138 said:
Y'know, even if I had read the playtest rules, I'm not sure that I would have been able to pick this particular mechanic out. Perhaps it's because I only got into gaming more recently, but this just seems like a variation on Savage Worlds' bennies, FATE points, or D&D 5e's inspiration. And as far as I can see, mechanics like these really only break immersion for as long as it takes to get used to them. Rolling dice for initiative, an attack, or a skill check is also a meta-game mechanic, but once you're used to it, it doesn't really break immersion anymore once a GM asks for a die roll.

I guess when I think of meta-game rules, I think more of the act break in Fiasco where the book literally tells you to, out of character, discuss where the story has been and where it's heading.

I have no issues with Fate points, Luck points, and the like. Those are tied to individuals, though. In most games, with points like these, the points are limited, and the character that spends the point benefits from the point.

With the 2d20 system, anybody can generate a point at any time just by "buying" extra dice to throw. The reason it is meta-game is that the consequences of use of that point by the Game Master has nothing to do with who generated the point.

For example, Karus, an Aquilonian Soldier, generates points paid to the GM when he fights off raiders attacking the caravan he is guarding. This happens out in the desert. The points go into a general pool for the GM to use later. During the next game session, Regnus, the Thief, breaks into a home in the wicked city of Shadizar, and the GM uses the points generated by Karus out in the desert to make the guards guarding the home (a home miles away in the city) both elite and doubled in number.

Because Karus generated the Threat (Threat is what the points are called in the game), Regnus pays for that action. It's a meta-game mechanic that makes no sense to me at all (and it certainly doesn't make the game more "gritty", not in a good way, anyway).

I'd be OK with the Threat points if the points were tied to character that used them. One character being heroic, generating Threat points that can be used anywhere in the game, is not good game design (doesn't even make sense).

On top of this, the game punishes the act of being heroic. If you buy extra dice to succeed at hard tasks, you generate Threat Points. That discourages being heroic. And, it sets up the relationship that if a character is heroic, SOMEONE in the character's party is going to pay for it later.

That doesn't fit Conan's universe at all.

Desh-Rae-Halra · Jan 18, 2016

Well crap....I backed the Mutant Chronicles Kickstarter hoping it would be a neat new game....
Is there no limit to how many of these dice you can buy?
Guess when I get it, I'll have to house-rule a bunch of sh*t right off the bat....

Water Bob · Jan 18, 2016

Desh-Rae-Halra said:
Well crap....I backed the Mutant Chronicles Kickstarter hoping it would be a neat new game....
Is there no limit to how many of these dice you can buy?

Yes, I believe in the Conan game, you can buy up to three extra dice. There's no limit on the number of times a character can buy extra dice. He can do it every task, if he wants. He'll just keep generating more and more Threat for the GM to use at some point. But, on one task, there is a limit of three extra dice--generating one point per extra die purchased.

Guess when I get it, I'll have to house-rule a bunch of sh*t right off the bat....

I thought of that myself, because I'm a huge Conan fan. I wanted desperately to like the game. I tried hard. I just couldn't do it.

The problem is that the mechanic is central to the system. Tasks purposefully encourage the generation of the Threat points. Characters can only achieve success with the easier throws. Any throw that is more difficult to achieve will encourage the purchase of Threat. According to the game's proponents, that's the fun of the game. Players generate Threat Point. Be heroic. Then, pay for their heroics later.

EDIT: Not to mention that the jar of buttons--the "Threat Point Total"--is known by all at the table. The proponents of the game say this is good. Players cringe as the button jar grows with buttons, knowing that things are going to get harder as the game progresses.

I cry, "Meta-game nonsense!" Players will see that the Threat is high and be cautious. They'll not be heroic when they have a choice, because they don't want to add to the already large Threat Pool. They'll expect harder obstacles at the adventure continues, and then, if the GM uses a lot of those Threat Points, and the button jar level falls, the players will then not be as cautious as they were before. All because they can know the Threat Level against them!

This certainly doesn't make the game more gritty! It makes it more silly!

It's a horrible mechanic.

2nd EDIT: The Threat Mechanic actually makes a lot more sense when you consider the system used with the game for which it was designed--Mutant Chronicles. In that game, there is a "force" called Dark Symmetry that has an affect on the game world. The 2d20 System isn't a bad system if used with that game. The effect of Threat is the effect of Dark Symmetry in the game.

The problem is that there is no agent, like Dark Symmetry, or The Force in Star Wars, in Howard's Hyborian Age. If anything, the "force" in Conan's time would be sorcery, nature, or plain old luck. But none of those makes sense when considering how the mechanics work. If you are heroic, then obstacles will be harder--you can't chalk that up to luck or nature. And, sorcery certainly doesn't effect every person and every situation in Conan's universe.

In fact, it goes against Conan's creed that a strong sword and the will to wield it is all a person needs to succeed in life.

Plain and simple: The 2d20 game system was designed specifically for one game (Mutant Chronicles 3rd Edition) and has been sandwiched into a game where the mechanics do not work as well because the game universe is different.

Desh-Rae-Halra · Jan 19, 2016

Thanks for the details. At least it kind of works for Mutant Chronicles. I'll be much more wary of other settings though using that mechanic.

Water Bob · Jan 19, 2016

Desh-Rae-Halra said:
Thanks for the details. At least it kind of works for Mutant Chronicles. I'll be much more wary of other settings though using that mechanic.

Yeah, it actually fits the Mutant Chronicles quite well. Dark Symmetry is an evil, negative type force. So, it punishes heroics. I get it, and it works quite well.

But, that's a unique mechanic for a unique aspect of one game. The 2d20 system does not make too much sense when it is shoe-horned into other gaming universes.

Lord_Blacksteel · Jan 19, 2016

Water Bob said:
I have no issues with Fate points, Luck points, and the like. Those are tied to individuals, though. In most games, with points like these, the points are limited, and the character that spends the point benefits from the point.

Also those tend to be the opposite of this approach - a fixed number of points to begin with (because your characters are heroes) and new ones are generated when the GM does something nasty, giving you an extra chance to do something out of the ordinary then or later. That's much different than an open-ended pool that will have to be paid for later. That sounds much more like a dark-side-of-the-force kind of approach (power now - pay for it later) which makes sense considering the origin.

Water Bob said:
On top of this, the game punishes the act of being heroic. If you buy extra dice to succeed at hard tasks, you generate Threat Points. That discourages being heroic. And, it sets up the relationship that if a character is heroic, SOMEONE in the character's party is going to pay for it later.

That doesn't fit Conan's universe at all.

...and that's my biggest problem with it too. I'm a big fan of Conan and the setting. While I've never been completely thrilled with the published RPG options this seems like a really poor fit. Maybe something else will come out that will change that opinion but as of right now it doesn't appeal to me at all.

mrm1138 · Jan 19, 2016

Lord_Blacksteel said:
Also those tend to be the opposite of this approach - a fixed number of points to begin with (because your characters are heroes) and new ones are generated when the GM does something nasty, giving you an extra chance to do something out of the ordinary then or later. That's much different than an open-ended pool that will have to be paid for later. That sounds much more like a dark-side-of-the-force kind of approach (power now - pay for it later) which makes sense considering the origin.

...and that's my biggest problem with it too. I'm a big fan of Conan and the setting. While I've never been completely thrilled with the published RPG options this seems like a really poor fit. Maybe something else will come out that will change that opinion but as of right now it doesn't appeal to me at all.

Okay, that argument makes a lot of sense to me, and now I'm seeing [MENTION=92305]Water Bob[/MENTION]'s point. I think that what threw me off before was the fact that one of the elements Water Bob objected to was the fact that he perceived it as meta-gamey. I personally have no beef with meta-game mechanics in and of themselves—in fact the concept of a visual representation of rising tension is something that works quite well in the proper milieu (e.g., Dread). But yeah, it doesn't necessarily sound like the best fit for something like Conan where the mechanic in question effectively punishes the player for trying to do something awesome.

At least the Fantasy Flight Games Star Wars RPG balances the Force points by making sure they are never unlimited, and if the GM uses one to affect the players, that spent dark side point immediately becomes a light side point the players can use to improve their situation, making it a constant flow.

mrm1138 · Jan 19, 2016

ADDENDUM: It's possible I might have already said this earlier, but if I have, I'll reiterate. There are already plenty of games that can do sword & sorcery pretty damned well. There's the upcoming Crypts & Things Remastered—which tweaks Swords & Wizardry in ways that make it perfect for the subgenre—Barbarians of Lemuria, On Mighty Thews, and Beasts & Barbarians for Savage Worlds. The only thing the Modiphius Conan seems to have going for it, as far as I can tell, is the fact that it is officially licensed. That will probably be enough for a lot of people, but it's definitely not a selling point for me.