Intellect Devourer ate my Intelligence

Hiya!

MarkB said:

Yeah, but there's a difference between something bad happening to the PC and something bad happening to the player. If the PC is reduced to a vegetative state, and the player has to basically wait around twiddling his thumbs while the party goes on an extended quest to restore him, that's in some ways worse than the PC just being outright killed.

As you say there are other options, and in this case it sounds like the players found one of their own - polymorphing the PC into a beast to allow the character's continued participation, at least in combats - but anything which results in a player feeling unable to contribute effectively during a session is not going to enhance the fun.

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I get where you're coming from. Polymorphing, as the spell goes, is a good 'median' solution...maybe even one that could have some really cool RP'ing come out of it. Like, the PC likes his new form MORE than his old one. "Gee guy, I know we worked hard to get here and all, but honestly...being in this Hobgoblin body is pretty decent. I kinda like it. Never been this tall before, and you should see the size of my...er...feet. Yeah, my feet are big enough I can balance real well now. Anyway...maybe I'll just stay a hobgoblin? Whadaya guys think? It could work, right? Easy to infiltrate monster lairs...I just have to learn some languages I guess".

As for the "player feeling unable to contribute effectively during a session is not going to enhance the fun", this is completely subjective to the other players, the player him/herself and the type of game everyone plays. I was a player in a 1e/2e game (the '2nd DM' was running a Ravenloft campaign). Me and one other player had PC's that were more or less completely "out of the scene" at the beginning of the session. About 6 hours later...we were still out of it. But during that time we still enjoyed 'playing' in the session. We got to help others look stuff up so they could keep RP'ing, we talked 'in character' to each other, we got to see the unfortunate party in-fighting go on between the recently-converted-to-Chaoitic-Evil-Half-Orc-Fighter and everyone else, etc. In short, just because we didn't "actually play" (in any meaningful way) our PC's didn't mean we didn't have fun at the table.

Different people get different things out of RP'ing. For me (and most/all) of my players, hanging out and seeing a story unfold (even if I'm not directly involved at that moment) and stuff happen is a large part of my enjoyment. Sure, being able to "play normally" is always nice/preferred, but basically 'sitting in' on a session or two doesn't stop my fun. I think the term is "living vicariously" through another. In some situations...such as the aforementioned CE Ravenloft Party-In-Fight, it was actually a bonus; we had no horse in the race and so it was like watching a melodrama from afar...no real risk to our PC's, but we got to experience the tension, thrill, and excitement of it all anyway.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

pming said:

Hiya!



True enough, but then we start going down the whole rabbit hole of "If something detrimental happens to a PC, then the DM shouldn't have let it happen without providing a quick means of countering said thing"...which leads to "..and if we're gonna do that, then why bother with ANYTHING bad happening to the PC in the first place?". Slippery slope, IMNSHO.

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By the same argument, there really isn't any point in going to see an action movie or read an adventure novel, since we know the good guys will win in the end.

Hiya!

Paul Farquhar said:

By the same argument, there really isn't any point in going to see an action movie or read an adventure novel, since we know the good guys will win in the end.

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Then you are watching the wrong movies and reading the wrong books.

Ok, sure, there aren't a lot of "bad" ending stories out there. But then again, an RPG *isn't* a novel or a movie. In an RPG there *isn't* an expected outcome of bad guys loose, good guys gets the Foozle, everyone lives happily ever after. Well, unless you have a horrible DM that doesn't let the Players help tell the story and instead forces his/her outcome regardless. Thankfully I think those sorts of DM's are a rarity.

Anyway, point being...RPG's are written.

..."Identity"
..."One Flew Over the Coocoo's Nest"
..."No Country for Old Men"
..."Saw"
..."Rosemary's Baby"
..."Silence of the Lambs"
..."Primal Fear"
..."Star Wars: Episode V"
..."Se7en"
..."The Usual Suspects"

All movies where the bad guys win. (Just grabbed that list off of Youtube). There are many other stories where the bad guys win.

That said...I get your point. The typical "heroic story" is where the good guys win. And if a particular D&D campaign is based around this premise, they yes. But, as I said...RPG's don't have a set ending. Or at least they shouldn't, IMNSHO.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

pming said:

Hiya!



Then you are watching the wrong movies and reading the wrong books.

Ok, sure, there aren't a lot of "bad" ending stories out there. But then again, an RPG *isn't* a novel or a movie. In an RPG there *isn't* an expected outcome of bad guys loose, good guys gets the Foozle, everyone lives happily ever after. Well, unless you have a horrible DM that doesn't let the Players help tell the story and instead forces his/her outcome regardless. Thankfully I think those sorts of DM's are a rarity.

Anyway, point being...RPG's are written.

..."Identity"
..."One Flew Over the Coocoo's Nest"
..."No Country for Old Men"
..."Saw"
..."Rosemary's Baby"
..."Silence of the Lambs"
..."Primal Fear"
..."Star Wars: Episode V"
..."Se7en"
..."The Usual Suspects"

All movies where the bad guys win. (Just grabbed that list off of Youtube). There are many other stories where the bad guys win.

That said...I get your point. The typical "heroic story" is where the good guys win. And if a particular D&D campaign is based around this premise, they yes. But, as I said...RPG's don't have a set ending. Or at least they shouldn't, IMNSHO.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

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I specified "Action" movies and "Adventure" novels. The genres D&D is intended to emulate. The only movie you mention that fits into those genres is Star Wars: Episode V, and in that case the good guys certainly do win in the end. It just happens that The End is in the next movie.


You clearly have a 100% different philosophy for D&D than anyone who I play with, where there is a tacit expectation that the heroes will win (unless they make really bad decisions). Anything else is considered unfair and bad form, killer DMs rapidly finding themselves without any players.

Hjorimir said:

One word: Yoink!

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No it is "DOH". He does not have the int to say "Yoink!".

Quartz said:

We've done this a number of times. You had the monster in your dungeon; you should have foreseen the possibility. Personally I'd just make the damage recover over a long rest. Otherwise it's not fun for the player.

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Um. Um. No. Repeat after me. "Occasionally the monster wins!". A quick reset nerfs the monster.

jasper said:

Um. Um. No. Repeat after me. "Occasionally the monster wins!". A quick reset nerfs the monster.

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True but the idea is to have fun. That takes priority. Leaving a player's character with zero Int is un-fun. This is actually worse than the PC dying.