Will you make transsexual Elves canon in your games ?

I’ve been watching this thread with some amusement at some of the pretty lame excuses for not allowing this tiny element in the game. To be fair the title is deliberately provocative... after all we don’t have debates about whether gnolls are carnivores, or if angels can communicate telepathically. For some strange reason this seems to be a controversial subject. Hopefully we will eventually get to the stage where the topic doesn’t even raise eyebrows.

Most hilarious reason to exclude it goes to “this topic is serious and we don’t deal with serious things in our games.” What so no death, murder, kidnapping, no captured slaves, or villages pillaged by dragons? No mysterious diseases, or divine curses... those things aren’t serious... but what hangs or doesn’t hang between one player/npc’s legs is?

Next most hilarious reason: “My players are too immature, they’ll just mess around with this.” Well at least you’re self aware. However if that’s what they enjoy I don’t really see it as a problem. Shakespeare’s greatest comedies involved men that people thought were women and vice versa.

Any groups with a trans player in them will already be so cool with this that it will be a total non-event. There’s no point even getting your knickers in a twist.

Any DM who refuses a player who genuinely asks to have the ability, needs to have a good hard look at themselves and question why they’re refusing. I’m not going to tell anyone what they must or must not think in their own home. However, while this is not the same issue, people were talking the same the same way about gay people 10 years ago, black people 50 years ago and women 80 years ago... It doesn’t fit my version of the world... people can’t take it seriously... it will disrupt group cohesion. Etc etc.

It’s cannon now so get over it, or ignore it as you chose.

- Do you allow transhumanism in your sci-fi game?

- Yes, my PC suffers a trauma because his father was a lesbian who made a girlfriend and later changed to a male body.

- 8-0

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I can allow gender bender in my stories for comical purposes, like the movie "some like it hot" or the manganime "Ranma 1/2". Also I allow an amazon land where everybody are born like girls, but in the teenage some girls become boys, their true genre. However, when a elf family is going to be created, the elven children need a father and a mother. I could allow "transexual" elves, but only they could be fertile with a genre, and the other would be sterile because I don't want troubles like "her biological mother is my biological father after a genre change".

And in my setting all good races and monogamous, between other reasons, to avoid fights for the heritage between children of different mothers.

Hiya!

Lychee of the Exch. said:

Hello,

I've seen the Jeremy Crawford interview where he talks about Elves as portrayed in the Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes - specifically, some of them can now change sex after a long rest, so they're transsexual in practice.

What do you think of it ?

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LOL! Like always, I don't care...so if some player wants to play that kind of elf, no skin off my teeth. Will it be "canon" in my game? No. At least not as a 'normal' option. If someone has a cool idea for a cool character where this sort of thing is important for some reason, sure, we can work with that... but by default "No, elves do not change sex like some frogs. Exceptions and mutations do occur...as mentioned in your book there, MToF*, and as defined in my campaign notes, here (hands The Campaign booklet to player)".

IMNSHO, what someone thinks of themselves, or (in the case of these unusual elves) what sex they want to have between their legs is FAR less important (pretty much irrelevant...kinda like real life I guess) than your ability to avoid having your brain eaten by a mind flayer, your spleen devoured by a giant spider, or your liver nibbled on by a swarm of rats.

It's an interesting idea...why elves though? I mean, wouldn't it have been easier/better to just use some sort of, say "half-doppleganger" race? Where changing sex, blood type, body shape, etc makes more sense? Hmmm...."half-elf, half-doppleganger". Now THAT sounds interesting! "An interesting note about elves...they can breed with humans, and dopplegangers. Such offspring are called [whatever MToF calls them], and are even more prejudiced against than half-elves in elven society". Something like that would be interesting. *shrug* It's a thought anyway.

*I do not own MToF, so I'm guessing here. This is what it sounds like from what I've heard. Correct?
^_^

Paul L. Ming

pming said:

Will it be "canon" in my game? No. At least not as a 'normal' option. If someone has a cool idea for a cool character where this sort of thing is important for some reason, sure, we can work with that... but by default "No, elves do not change sex like some frogs. Exceptions and mutations do occur...as mentioned in your book there, MToF, and as defined in my campaign notes, here (hands The Campaign booklet to player)".

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I don’t think there was ever a suggestion that it would apply to all elves. Only the Blessed of Corellon.

Your post seems to read it’s ok but rare, which is exactly what MToF suggests. However the tone of your post is pretty dismissive. Nobody suggested it was like a frog or a mutation - instead a blessing of the elves’ androgynous god.

Maybe associating the topic with doppelgängers isn’t the most welcoming way of doing it. They are murderous alien creatures who eat people’s brains and steal their identities. It’s possible that those playing this background have had enough of prejudice?

Don't know why this is so controversial. I once designed a humanoid species for a space-faring RIFTS campaign that could and would switch their sex.

They were born androgynous and did their first shift during puberty. The switch would take something between 1-3 weeks (this was sci-fi, so I explained it with a hormonal change that does take some time). Reasons for switching? Emotional state, a desire to try out something new, having found a perfect match...

Regarding partnership and families, they were able to procreate in both forms, but only few would do so with the same partner in two different forms (those who did were considered 'true matches'). This didn't matter as the species was long-lived and a couple would usually do the child-rearing together.

I don't see why a child born into a species that *is* like this would be traumatized if "mom" became "dad" someday. Switching is part of their nature, sex and gender are not set in stone and the kid would most certainly ask if "now-dad" had seen some sort of flamboyant fashion that triggered his desire to be male for some time.

Lylandra said:

Don't know why this is so controversial.

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This is controversial because sexual identity is important to people, even in make-believe medium, and that transsexuality is an oddity - i.e it differs from the norm - which troubles people.

Though the best term for it is maybe not "controversial." Maybe unusual and perplexing would be a better term.

Hiya.

TheSword said:

I don’t think there was ever a suggestion that it would apply to all elves. Only the Blessed of Corellon.

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Ahh. Ok. As I said, I don't have the MToF, so was only going by what I thought from various posts here. Thanks for the clarification!

TheSword said:

Your post seems to read it’s ok but rare, which is exactly what MToF suggests. However the tone of your post is pretty dismissive. Nobody suggested it was like a frog or a mutation - instead a blessing of the elves’ androgynous god.

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Uh...it was dismissive. That was my point. I don't care if someone wants to play a "Blessed of Corellon". It's a non-issue. Irrelevant because the entire idea of sex/sexuality/gender/whatever they call it in the book is pretty much a very VERY minor point when you look at the context of a fantasy world. Add in the whole "adventurers" thing...and my points about getting killed in horrible ways...and, well, yeah. I see it as more or less as "important" as "My character has green eyes". In my campaign it would be a very rare thing and I might stick with the whole "doppleganger" thing; I can easily see the elves that are 'blessed' trying to put a 'spin' on their actual heritage in order to try and be more accepted. Actually, that makes a lot more sense now that I think of it. Thanks for the idea!

TheSword said:

Maybe associating the topic with doppelgängers isn’t the most welcoming way of doing it. They are murderous alien creatures who eat people’s brains and steal their identities. It’s possible that those playing this background have had enough of prejudice?

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What are you talking about? Most monsters are "bad"...the same could be said for just about any large group who feel that they are the "chosen race of the world". I'm sure Orcs see Elves as "murderous alien creatures who eat orcs brains" (ok, maybe not the whole eating orc brains...but then again...). In fact, I'm sure just about every evil, neutral, and some good "races/countries" feel that they are "right" and others are "wrong". The whole "Blessed of Corellon" being a sort of 'spin' to let those who are of that...sub-race? (is that what they are?) not get killed, beaten, berated, or otherwise forced to become pariahs in their own community makes a lot more sense than "Well, we're special...so everyone loves us and thinks we're awesome!". I've never seen elves as being "accepting of differences outside what is a good and proper Elf"; that's where they get the haughtiness and arrogance...believing that they and their society/way is "obviously better" than everyone else. I never grocked the whole "elves are kind, gentle souls who laugh, dance and play music in the moonlight" (not for D&D at any rate).

As for "...that those playing this background have had enough of prejudice?". Roleplayers? Gamers? Tell me you're not trying to equate a fantasy role-playing game's imaginary elves with "real world stuff". Wait. You are, aren't you? ...sigh... I'm not biting. Nope. Nu-uhh.

No matter how you slice it, I like any major changes (if you can call it that) to a original D&D race/whatever to 'fit' into MY campaign world. If I can't fit something in...I either rework it until it does, or I just say no. Initially I was of the "don't care, but if someone wanted to..." stance. Still am, I think. But now I'm thinking of the whole half-elf-half-doppleganger thing and I really like it's potential for RP, story, motivation for NPC's, and that sort of thing.

Of course, YMMV.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Lylandra said:

Don't know why this is so controversial. I once designed a humanoid species for a space-faring RIFTS campaign that could and would switch their sex.

They were born androgynous and did their first shift during puberty. The switch would take something between 1-3 weeks (this was sci-fi, so I explained it with a hormonal change that does take some time). Reasons for switching? Emotional state, a desire to try out something new, having found a perfect match...

Regarding partnership and families, they were able to procreate in both forms, but only few would do so with the same partner in two different forms (those who did were considered 'true matches'). This didn't matter as the species was long-lived and a couple would usually do the child-rearing together.

I don't see why a child born into a species that *is* like this would be traumatized if "mom" became "dad" someday. Switching is part of their nature, sex and gender are not set in stone and the kid would most certainly ask if "now-dad" had seen some sort of flamboyant fashion that triggered his desire to be male for some time.

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You made a new race did not retcon an old one. Sometimes its not what you do but how you do it. Inventing a new race that can do that maybe in a new campaign setting well that's interesting. Retconning an old one well its a bit ham fisted.

For myself, I don't usually like new changes to races, or even new races in many cases. I don't care for this change. I don't like Mithral Elves from 3e. I still don't like Avariel Elves. Lythari are right out. Wild Elves? Nope! No Rockseers for me.

Basically, just give me Sylvan/Wood, High Elves, Grey Elves and Dark Elves. The rest can go pound sand.

I also don't care for Aasimar, Tieflings, Dragonborn and Warforged as races.

Zardnaar said:

You made a new race did not retcon an old one. Sometimes its not what you do but how you do it. Inventing a new race that can do that maybe in a new campaign setting well that's interesting. Retconning an old one well its a bit ham fisted.

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It’s hardly a retcon. It’s a small ability addition to the race which doesn’t remove any abilities, only applies in a small number of cases, and is already covered in the lore of earlier additions. Let’s not exaggerate the impact on the race of elves as a whole. It makes almost no difference to most players and probably makes a big positive difference to those that it does matter to.

@pming There is a world of difference between recognizing a currently marginalized segment of society within the elf race (a mainstream popular heroic race) and relegating them to a monster-race off shoot of a brain eating fundamentally dishonest creature. If you don’t see a relevance to that I’m not going to try and change your world view. I’ll just say it matters to the people it matters to, and is irrelevant to those it doesn’t matter to.

The whole exercise has Zero negative impact and yet there are still some people who come up with convoluted ways to write it off. It’s the internet I guess.