Wrecking characters

Li Shenron said:

[MENTION=6689161]Warpiglet[/MENTION] I don't think you're doing anything wrong, if you enjoy the game. But if you think you're not, then if I were in your situation I'd probably just try the following:

- promise yourself not to multiclass or take feats that dabble in another class feature, at all
- trust your ability to play well without worrying for optimizing, or realize that unoptimized means harder means more fun
- write down a short list of "must-keep" conceptual traits for your PC, and check against them each time you level up so that you don't deviate too much

Click to expand...

It ends up....OK when I tinker. But you are right---if I so much as remind myself to stay on target---at each decisionnpoint, I will do fine. I think for me, it's less the feats and more the multiclassing that can miss the mark

Warpiglet said:

It ends up....OK when I tinker. But you are right---if I so much as remind myself to stay on target---at each decisionnpoint, I will do fine. I think for me, it's less the feats and more the multiclassing that can miss the mark

Click to expand...

Well I can agree with that... even tho I have played multiclassed characters in the past, personally I believe that multiclassing is more likely to "water down" the character concept rather than enriching it.

I had the same problem and recently found a way to see my character as a whole instead of seeing him in terms of mechanics.
Do you have a good memory? If so, try and see if you can memorize the numbers on your sheet. If you can, then flip your character sheet or put it away. In my case, this helped greatly to be in character and not see it as a build.

Doesn't seem problematic to me. Real characters (and people!) change all the time. Your character is going through a series of life-changing, stressful events; why wouldn't they change in response to that?

Playing a character to fit a vision you came up with during character creation isn't a virtue, playing a character who grows and changes and maybe ends up different than what you expected is.

Well, for Gandalf, how often do we actually even see him use magic? Something that has more combat ability but still casts magic might fit the stereotype or what we have in mind just fine.

On the otherhand, we don't see him wearing armor as much so that's a quandary to ponder for any trying to make a Gandalf type in 5e.

Warpiglet said:

in the future, I am going to be more careful about feats and multiclassing and ask myself if the choice immerses more with flavor or dilutes the original intent and vision.

there is no wrong way to play if you are having fun but for me Immersion and theme is paramount and I have done a good job sabotaging myself by losing sight of that from time to time.

Click to expand...

This is the entire motivation behind creating a BUILD. You make those choices ahead of time because you want your character to end up in a certain place and NOT be distracted by shiny things along the way. In order to get to Z you must have/do X and Y, and not deviate in order to pick up X1 and Y7 because they seem cool. You work out all those decisions before you roll your first initiative. When you deviate from your build it should only be because the build permits the deviation without threatening your core concept and ultimate goals for the character, or your concept for the character HAS changed and you have planned and revised your build from your current position to NEED those changes to end up at your altered destination.

Ganders said:

One of my concepts is a character that wears plate mail but has expertise in stealth, uses both a wand and a sword, does bonus damage when striking from hiding, and can cast fireballs, heals, and resurrections while tracking his favored enemy. Call it a 'concept that isn't modelled well with existing classes' if you like, but I think it's trying to be too many things at the same time. 5e doesn't model that well because it doesn't want to. It doesn't think any one character should get more than a couple of gimmicks.

Click to expand...

I don't call that "concept" anything, it's not a concept, it's a collection of powers from a particular game system you want. It's not even close to a concept.

But if you had an actual concept that was able to do those things it would be a fine concept. It would also be a powerful concept so couldn't be realized as a low level character, any more then a character who just "cast resurrections" could be created as a low level character.

Considering that there's opportunity costs while leveling - you get to do X or Y, but not both, you could probably realize this at a level when others are casting wish, making you rather low powered because you spread yourself in so many different directions.

But you're right, 5e doesn't model it well - which does not make it a bad concept, it makes 5e a bad system to try to realize that concept.

Also, a concept doesn't "I have the favored enemy feature" or "the expertise feature for stealth", it's has "I hate hobgoblins and are good at hunting them" or "I am very good at sneaking". "Favored enemy" and "Expertise" is one of several mechanical ways of modelling that, and in one system only. A concept has nothing to do with system. I can attempt to find mechanics to model the same concept regardless if it's D&D 5e, PathFinder, FATE, Rolemaster, or Dungeon World. Some will be better or worse at modelling it.

This is a concept:
"I am Morak Twinember. Ever since the raid by hobgoblins on our smithy killed my pa, I've hated them. I quit the militia when they wouldn't go after them and tried to deal with them myself, tracking them down and sneaking into their camps. But my eyes were opened when I met Master Wen, the Hermit of the Spire. He awakened the magic of the Sun God within me, as well as a sense of larger purpose."

This is a mechanical realization of that concept in a particular game system:
Mountain Dwarf Ranger 2/Rogue 1/Sorcerer (Divine Soul) 11
Heavily Armored feat.
Favored Enemy: Goblins and Hobgoblins
Expertise in Stealth and Tracking
Sneak Attack: +1d6
Can pick from the sorcerer and cleric spell lists. Has 5th level spells. Among spells known are Fireball, Heal, and Raise Dead.
If you want more sneak attack, feel free to increase rogue level - this is a high level concept. Again, at the opportunity cost of not advancing other things.

But I could just as easily of taken that concept and modeled it in another system. Concept is independent of system. What you had was a wish list of abilities.

If you are having fun there is no problem.

If you are being disruptive to your group then either the DM or you can mitigate it. In my experience it seems that even silly characters do OK in D&D 5e. Sure maybe you are doing 2 less damage per round, but you have 2 more AC, it just works it in the end.

It only becomes a problem if everyone is super optimized and you are not or vice versa.

Warpiglet said:

there is no wrong way to play if you are having fun but for me Immersion and theme is paramount and I have done a good job sabotaging myself by losing sight of that from time to time.

Click to expand...

Bolded for truth. I've been playing completely the opposite way of you. I've been randomly selecting race, class and background. And ability score placement, too (with tweaks if necessary) so there is no concept except what the dice determine.

Maybe try giving yourself a challenge not to multiclass?

For example, if you could have held out until level 4 or were willing to make a variant human, you could have used the magic initiate feat to get more spells, without all the baggage that a level in cleric brings to your character.