D&D 3E/3.5 Thoughts of a 3E/4E powergamer on starting to play 5E

MoonSong said:

Except it can be stolen, taken away or destroyed. Specially in the middle of an adventuring day. That kills the feel that magic it a part of you.

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Tattoo it to their arms, should capture that "part of you" feeling and prevent it "easily" being taken away...

Imaro said:

my concern would be that while it may not break the game at what point are we moving into the territory of the wizard's versatility vs. the sorcerer's raw power and manipulation of spells? Find Familiar, Unseen servant, Rope Trick as wellas something about shadow ponies and the other spells mentioned. Now if there's no wizard in the game this probably isn't an issue... but if there is and too many of these concessions are made (with no cost)... it may start to feel like his toes are being stepped on by the sorcerer (since essentially if you allow him to pick any spell as opposed to those on the sorcerer list he has (at least one of) the advantages of a wizard (versatility) along with sorcerer metamagic. Not sure at what point it breaks the game but it can make the game less fun for the guy who chose to play the Wizard.

EDIT: Another concern and I can't speak to how game breaking it would be or not since in all honesty I haven't had anyone play a sorcerer in my games is how metamagic interacts with the particular spells from the wizard list he wants...

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Upthread various posters ( [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION], [MENTION=83242]dave2008[/MENTION], maybe one or two others I'm forgetting at the moment) have posted that 5e is very flexible/hackable. And one of the reasons for this is it's different approach to balance. (Including, as [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] has often emphasised, relying on the GM to manage encounter pacing and "spotlight" balance).

If they are even half-way correct, I find it impossible to believe that it would break the game (either mechanically, or in spotlight terms) for the sorcerer to be able to use Find Familiar or Rope Trick and metamagic them. The only metamagic effect that would apply to Rope Trick, for instance, is Extension, I think. Does extending a Roper Trick from 1 hour to 2 hours create any balance issues?

dave2008 said:

That's more tinkering than hacking IMO Here are some of the hacks we used at some point in 4e:

Revised Armor to provide DR (attacks that target AC target Reflex)
Your bloodied HP is based on your size (not half total) and represents actual damage (armor protects bloodied damage [BHP] only not your HP)
You can use healing surges to recharge encounter and daily powers
2nd wind and healing surges don't increase bloodied hit points
Revised monster damage per the DMG 42 blog suggestions
Revised monster level to approx. 2/3 listed level

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The changes to monster damage and level seem to me like tinkering too. (I've done a lot of monster conversions, levelling up and down, changing damage in light of MM3, etc).

Using surges tor recharge powers isn't something I've done (personally I don't like the implications for pacing and spamming) but is fairly common, and again I would say (in your terminology) is closer to tinkering.

Your changes to hit points, healing and AC/DR, on the other hand, I'll cheerfully concede are in a different ballpark - if that's what you mean by hacking, then I am just a tinkerer! How did they work?

Tony Vargas said:

Wait, DMs will turn you deny your choice of class because a different class is already at their table?

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Yes, it happens.

I'll grant that the original Sorcerer was innovative at the time, and it did make for some interesting build-to-concepts, more for it's shortcomings - because it /couldn't/ just prep new spells each morning, spell choice was more defining - than for it's strengths. It's still a choose-spells-known class, so that still applies.
So the spell list is a big part of the problem? The sorcerer is ironically-unique in having no unique spells, but I thought it otherwise had a lot of the same spells as the wizard? Just not the 'Name' spells, Tenser's this and Ottiluke's the other thing and so forth?

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Well these spells are wizard but not sorcerer, and just for first level, other levels get progressively worse and worse. I could understand if named spells are off-limits, but why not let similar spells exist for sorcerers? (and they put a named spell in EE).

Alarm
Find Familiar
Grease
Identify
Illusory Script
Longstrider
Protection from Evil and Good
Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Tenser's Floating Disk
Unseen Servant

It seems like it would be almost trivially easy (again, I'm sorry, easy for the DM) to allow an Arcane Trickster using Sorcerer-style mechanics instead of Wizard-style ones. Artificer, sure, not a thing yet. Witches, not just because of the name, seems like Warlock could do well - or, the more neo-pagan take, Druid. And I'd think MCing and Magic Initiate (both OK in AL, AFAIK) could fill in some of the holes...

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All of those were -I do x with magic-... And sorry for the confusion, but I wasn't using witch as understood from an American-Western Europe tradition of witches that sleep with the devil or the wicca/neopaganism. I used witch in the sense closer to me -someone born with a special gift that runs in the family- in that sense you don't chose to be a witch, you just are one, you don't learn to be a witch, you learn how to control and empower the gift, and no you don't sell your soul for it.

MoonSong said:

Yes, it happens.

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How? Why?

DM's have no power beyond that which their players give to them. (Note: This statement is sincere, and originates from a long-time DM.)

MoonSong said:

I said " can hide between dimensions to rest or spy" I was obviously meaning rope trick, not a high level spell.

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In the post I've just quoted, you have attributed something to me which is the opposite of what I said. You quote me as saying "Well you asked for the ability to hide in dimensions... you didn't specify a particular level or a particular spell." I did not post that (maybe [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] did?). I was posting the opposite, making the point that there is a huge difference between an effect that comes online at 3rd level and one that comes online at 13th level.

MoonSong said:

Well, refluffing takes mental gymnastics that are alien, confusing, distracting and immersion breaking for me. Maybe there is something wrong with me, but I can't separate flavor from mechanics without basically ignoring mechanics. I just can't, it feels wrong very wrong.

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I don't want to comment on your mental state. I just want to suggest something.

If you write up a sorcerer, and then add to you spells-known list "Find Familiar, Rope Trick, Unseen Servant" I just don't see how that requires any mental gymnastics in 5e that it wouldn't require in 3E. Even if you're the sort of person who feels guilty for running a red light on an empty street late at night, the only rules you're breaking in this case are the rules of a game that you yourself wish were different! (Yes, you GM has to allow this. The idea that all 5e GMs are such sticklers for the rules as written that they won't let you tweak your sorcerer's spell list seems very surprising to me.)

Or, if you write up your Tome Warlock, but strike out the heading "Book of Shadow" and instead write in "Inherent Powers", and strike out the heading "Patron" and instead write in "Arcane Lineage", that's not "reffluffing". That's just changing your PC's backstory - which is part-and-parcel of playing a RPG.

Would those sorts of changes affect the balance of the game? I can't see how they would. Your character is marginally more powerful than a regular warlock, because cannot be forced to spend an hour recreating his/her Tome of Shadows. Hardly a big deal.

Again, your GM would have to allow this. But it hardly seems broken to me.

MoonSong said:

Yes, it happens.

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That is bizarre behavior. I can see "well, we really need a cleric..." (I can't un-see it, even after all these years), but heck, play what you want. These are AL DMs?

FWIW, I wouldn't have any trouble with a Sorcerer having a different spell list than normal - I'd probably draw the line at 'Name' spells, and might approach it as "tell me your concept, and I'll give you your list of known spells" (which'd be more like slowly discovering an innate power, anyway, since you're not literally going through a spell syllabus, deciding what you want to 'learn' like a wizard) if that sounded like fun. Heck, I'd want to throw in the odd original spell.

Familiar? Heck, I have a Thief in my 4e campaign who has a familiar (mechanically it works like one), because a critter just decided it liked him....

I think you're just unusually unlucky with your pool of DMs.

How do you feel about running?

Well these spells are wizard but not sorcerer, and just for first level, other levels get progressively worse and worse. I could understand if named spells are off-limits, but why not let similar spells exist for sorcerers? (and they put a named spell in EE).

Alarm
Find Familiar
Grease
Identify
Illusory Script
Longstrider
Protection from Evil and Good
Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Tenser's Floating Disk
Unseen Servant

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Yeah, OK, only two of those are named. And, no, I can't see why any one of those was excluded. Maybe a Dragon Sorcerer should have a more restricted list, but why would a Wild Sorcerer? If the point is for the Sorcerer to be more significantly different from other casters than they were in 3e, why not give the Sorcerer /some/ unique spells?

It is perplexing.

I used witch in the sense closer to me -someone born with a special gift that runs in the family- in that sense you don't chose to be a witch, you just are one, you don't learn to be a witch, you learn how to control and empower the gift, and no you don't sell your soul for it.

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OK,yeah, that sounds more like a Sorcerer.

pemerton said:

If you write up a sorcerer, and then add to you spells-known list "Find Familiar, Rope Trick, Unseen Servant" I just don't see how that requires any mental gymnastics in 5e that it wouldn't require in 3E.

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Other than they were on the Sorcerer's list in 3e, of course.

(Yes, you GM has to allow this. The idea that all 5e GMs are such sticklers for the rules as written that they won't let you tweak your sorcerer's spell list seems very surprising to me.)

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That is what's making me wonder. The big thing that 5e has really done for the game and especially for DMs, is get away from the RAW-obsession and back to openness. Not only not embracing that, but actively repudiating it is... unfortunate.

pemerton said:

Upthread various posters ( @CapnZapp, @dave2008, maybe one or two others I'm forgetting at the moment) have posted that 5e is very flexible/hackable. And one of the reasons for this is it's different approach to balance. (Including, as @Tony Vargas has often emphasised, relying on the GM to manage encounter pacing and "spotlight" balance).

If they are even half-way correct, I find it impossible to believe that it would break the game (either mechanically, or in spotlight terms) for the sorcerer to be able to use Find Familiar or Rope Trick and metamagic them. The only metamagic effect that would apply to Rope Trick, for instance, is Extension, I think. Does extending a Roper Trick from 1 hour to 2 hours create any balance issues?

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Okay @MoonSong at this point is asking for way more than rope trick & find familiar... in fact he's asking for more than just 3 or 4 wizard spells (which is doable within the 5e framework with no houseruling)... and at some point, irregardless of how flexible a game 5e is, there's a point where a wizard player is going to want to know why he can select any spell from the Wizard list he wants (because at this point it seems that's what he's really after and if not, well that's why I asked for non-shifting goalposts) and still get the advantage of the sorcerer class... Why do we need the wizard's 1 hr rope trick if our sorcerer can, when we need it, cast one that last's twice as long? What is the advantage the Wizard has over a sorcerer being able to cast it twice as long? See it's not about game balance or how robust the game is... but about stepping on people's toes when it comes to them having fun.

And metamagic's not just about enhancing his utility spells but the fact that he now has the same versatility as the wizard but can also hit harder than the wizard, extend spells longer, cast quicker spells etc. And I'm sorry but IMO, at a certain point, the wizard player would be justified in wondering why didn't he just choose sorcerer instead of wizard.

[MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION], doesn't a wizard have an infinite capacity for learning spells, while a sorcerer will hit their spells known limit?

SkidAce said:

[MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION], doesn't a wizard have an infinite capacity for learning spells, while a sorcerer will hit their spells known limit?

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Theoretically yes... and I'm not claiming there will be overlap (though I think its highly unlikely there won't be any). but if versatility and utility are the Wizard's thing (because damage certainly isn't) and you're getting to cherry pick the spells you want from his list (which I'm assuming will usually be the best)... how much of an advantage is infinite spells as opposed to being able to pick the best ones?

Imaro said:

Okay @MoonSong at this point is asking for way more than rope trick & find familiar... in fact he's asking for more than just 3 or 4 wizard spells (which is doable within the 5e framework with no houseruling)... and at some point, irregardless of how flexible a game 5e is, there's a point where a wizard player is going to want to know why he can select any spell from the Wizard list he wants (because at this point it seems that's what he's really after and if not, well that's why I asked for non-shifting goalposts) and still get the advantage of the sorcerer class... Why do we need the wizard's 1 hr rope trick if our sorcerer can, when we need it, cast one that last's twice as long? What is the advantage the Wizard has over a sorcerer being able to cast it twice as long? See it's not about game balance or how robust the game is... but about stepping on people's toes when it comes to them having fun.

And metamagic's not just about enhancing his utility spells but the fact that he now has the same versatility as the wizard but can also hit harder than the wizard, extend spells longer, cast quicker spells etc. And I'm sorry but IMO, at a certain point, the wizard player would be justified in wondering why didn't he just choose sorcerer instead of wizard.

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A wizard can prepare 4 spells (the sorcerer knows 2) The wizard can still cover the same niche as the sorcerer and have room to spare -not to count ritual casting-. If I have my PC learn Alarm, rope trick, find familiar, unseen servant and floating disk she has no room for fireball. Sorcerers can only cover a single niche, all I ask is to be able to cover it well. and if I somehow got my wish of a more flavor neutral bloodline the bonus to damage would be gone too. The wizard can cover many niches at the same time and change them the next day, or not to bother and just open the spellbook and cast a ritual. On the other hand without changes the wizard is always outdoing the sorcerer at ever time, even at her own niche -unless it is blasting, and only some of the time-