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D&D 3E/3.5 Thoughts of a 3E/4E powergamer on starting to play 5E

pemerton

Legend
So is it about having the capability to do the thing you described (hide in other dimensions) or about specific spells? Because that wasn't what you stated originally and it now feels like a shifting of goalposts.
I dunno. [MENTION=6689464]MoonSong[/MENTION] is lamenting an inability to build a preferred character type in 5e. Those preferences are the goalposts!
[MENTION=6689464]MoonSong[/MENTION], I'm puzzled by your comments about not liking re-skinning. Just build your Tome Warlock and ignore the Book of Shadows and Patron flavour, and write down that your character was born imbued with magic and grew up as a spear fighter. That's not going to break the game, so what's the problem? When the authors of the game have given you the mechanical scope to build the character you want, why are you also waiting for them to write in your preferred flavour too?

The healer thing I can understand, on the other hand (not why you would want to play a healbot!; but that you can't do it satisfactorily). Unlike the innate magic warlock, that is a mechanical thing that may not be easily fixed.
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
Not my experience, I find 5e to be at least as hackable as 4e, probably more.
Yes, I hafta agree.

If anything the only easy thing to hack in 4e was the little things, the things that doesn't change much.

Hacking 3e or 5e is much more satisfying.

And 5e wins because the lighter emphasis on balance. In 3e or 4e, it would be easy to get the feeling "don't change anything or you're ruining the balance".

5e is more like AD&D in that regard. The occasional imbalance might be noteworthy, but not the end of the world.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Yes, I hafta agree.

If anything the only easy thing to hack in 4e was the little things, the things that doesn't change much.

Odd. My current DM hacks away at just about whatever he wants--creating new skills (it's a sci-fantasy game), adding to or altering the uses of current skills, tweaking the specifics of powers, giving my character special race-specific bonuses and penalties because of that race's origin (they were created by the now-missing hyper-advanced precursor race, and are thus subject to certain influences that naturally-evolved races aren't), altering monsters of all stripes (minions/standards/elites/solos) freely and sometimes on the fly, adjudicating uses of powers outside their 'normal' context (I've used Lay on Hands multiple times to revive an ally from unconsciousness during a non-combat scene, even though that's not "what it's for"), etc. Other DMs have provided alternative "simple" minor actions (like +1 to hit from 'focusing on your target' or whatever--something simple but reliable), completely reconfigured the non-combat resolution system, and adopted systemic fix-'em-up things that eliminate many of the remaining mechanical concerns (like baking Expertise/Improved Defenses into the natural progression).

Like, I'm curious what you consider "things that don't change much," because no 4e DM I've known has been completely happy with the system, and has found its transparency freeing, because you generally know what the consequences of a change will be, whether sweeping or specific. The only exception I can think of is screwing with the definitions of existing keywords (and maybe altering the definitions of conditions)...but I mean, why would you even need to do that?

Hacking 3e or 5e is much more satisfying.

Well, satisfaction is always a matter of taste. Personally, I find it very bothersome that 5e is almost always heavily hacked...so I never really know what to expect from a game even if a DM *tries* to tell me in advance...and if it isn't, well the system leaves an awful lot to be desired when run "as written," in my experience.

And 5e wins because the lighter emphasis on balance. In 3e or 4e, it would be easy to get the feeling "don't change anything or you're ruining the balance".

See above--I've never understood this. Why does balance make things harder to modify? The balance is literally just "abilities and monsters scale in a predictable fashion." Adding fancy magic items, giving out shiny special +N armor/weapons (which nobody seems to want to do ANYWAY in 5e...), adding or removing skills, tweaking races/classes/backgrounds/themes/etc., hell maybe even some pretty extreme stuff like letting all Martial characters take any Martial power of their level or lower...none of this is at all impossible, and in fact very little of it will do anything meaningful to 4e's balance. Because the balance is more fundamental than that. Give someone a +4 sword at level 1, and sure, they'll hit a lot more often and do noticeably more damage, but they'll still run out of resources at roughly the same time and won't be able to prevent their allies from running out either.

So...what exactly is it about "things have been made to just work, and don't go pear shaped if you push a little or fall a little behind" that makes people so, frankly, afraid to make changes?

5e is more like AD&D in that regard. The occasional imbalance might be noteworthy, but not the end of the world.

Honestly, I have yet to see a single indication that this isn't true of 4e. People act like the tiniest shift would make the whole system implode...and yet I've never, not once, heard or seen anything to that effect from those who ACTUALLY played it and ACTUALLY modified it. Much the opposite, in fact.
 
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dave2008

Legend
Honestly, I have yet to see a single indication that this isn't true of 4e. People act like the tiniest shift would make the whole system implode...and yet I've never, not once, heard or seen anything to that effect from those who ACTUALLY played it and ACTUALLY modified it. Much the opposite, in fact.

You realize CapnZapp was responding to the comment that I made that 5e is at least as hackable as 4e. Implied in that is that 4e it is hackable. I think you are reading to much into his comments.

Personally I hacked 4e a lot, but it required on the fly adjudications because there are always things I didn't anticipate as a result of my hacks. I (and apparently your DM) don't mind doing that, but it really bothers some DMs and Players. Experiences and preferences are different. That doesn't make 4e or 5e any better or worse, but you may find one or the other fits how you play better or worse.
 

Imaro

Legend
I dunno. @MoonSong is lamenting an inability to build a preferred character type in 5e. Those preferences are the goalposts!

I'm trying to get a handle on what his "character type" is... he originally listed what he wanted to be able to do... I gave him a way to attain everything he listed and then the list changed and qualifiers were added thus bringing us back to square one, if that's going to be a continuous cycle then it's a pointless exercise because yes, his goalposts are continuously shifting and will not be able to be met.

Also what is the exclamation point for at the end of your sentence, I'm honestly confused by the context I should take away from it.
 

Imaro

Legend
Needing an external source of power negates the feel of a sorcerer. It feels different. You don't feel special, born with magic when you need a book. It changes everything.

It's 2 spells though. One you'll probably only ever cast again if the familiar dies and the other has a duration of 1 hr. As others have suggested, re-skin the book. Here's a suggestion make it a focus for your more esoteric spells (rituals) and you're good.

but you need it to take the feat?

Nope you can have a 13 or higher in Wisdom or Intelligence to take the feat.

Because a high level spell really is going to be relevant always of course. Instead of a very flexible staple that comes online early?

Well you asked for the ability to hide in dimensions... you didn't specify a particular level or a particular spell.

To take the feat.
Again Int or Wis


They are core-only characters that cannot be done with core only 5e -and wasn't inclusivity a goal? -, and not exactly a build. Just not wanting combat magic, and wanting a familiar and fighting with weapons. That's about it. That is not a build -and really you are doing a disservice to my preference by calling it a build.-, It is a preference for innate magic-wielding characters, someone for whom this is not an option or a choice that can be discarded or taken away -what that wonderful magic is or what are the character goals, race, background or specialty-. I find nothing wonderful out of burning everything on my path. Those missing spells are very fun out of combat spells that aren't an option anymore, and there is not much interesting stuff to take their place.

I guess inclusiveness could mean... everything from previous editions available in exactly the same way and form it was available in said previous edition... but the definition can also mean just including a great deal. I've shown you how to get your familiar and weapon with an innate caster (who has utility spells you can choose). Anytime you get into the realm of wanting a specific spell then yes I call it a build because that is much too narrow for a preference or archetype. If you just wanted an innate magic wielder with a weapon and the familiar ritual... 5e would satisfy your preferences very easily but that's not what you are now asking for.
 
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Sadras

Legend
People act like the tiniest shift would make the whole system implode...and yet I've never, not once, heard or seen anything to that effect from those who ACTUALLY played it and ACTUALLY modified it. Much the opposite, in fact.

Gamers have been tinkering with D&D since the beginning...and each new edition after the first felt like add-ons, so the tinkering was easy and familiar. 4e was innovative (and thus unfamiliar to many) and in order for some DMs to pull through some of the aspects they enjoyed about previous editions or roleplaying styles, the tinkering in 4e required a lot more careful thought.

4e brought about a greater sense of balance, than previous editions, as every class was locked into the AEDU and the skill increases and feat gains were fixed. It was viewed by many as a neat jigsaw puzzle...and you know what happens when you start twisting and turning the ends or even replacing actual puzzle parts, the jig-saw puzzle could potentially lose its 'perfection' and sometimes even its appeal.

5e on the other hand, is but a neat set of tools, which you can add and/or remove. It is not a complete set by any means, and strangely that is one of its charms, but it is certainly not a jig-saw puzzle either so the structure is more flexible and allows for variation - and for the tinkerers this is heaven.

This is all my perception of it of course. Best I could do. :)
 
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pemerton

Legend
For what it's worth, my experience is closer to [MENTION=6790260]EzekielRaiden[/MENTION]'s - I don't find 4e hard to "hack". Though maybe what I'm doing doesn't count as "hacking" in the relevant sense.

The sorts of things I'm thinking of are various ways of regimenting and adapting the skill challenge rules (combining the best of DMG, DMG2, Essentials plus ideas from ENworld posters); working with players to tweak themes, epic destinies etc; managing changes in PC build that go beyond the retraining rules but reflect events in the narrative; adjudicating "actions the rules don't cover" (per p 42); building monsters/NPCs, environmental effects, etc; using various mechanical and narrative approaches to rationing extended rests; and probably other stuff that I'm forgetting at the moment.

I'm not suggesting that 5e is particularly rigid, but I'm not sure in what ways it's distinctively hackable.
 

pemerton

Legend
I'm trying to get a handle on what his "character type" is... he originally listed what he wanted to be able to do... I gave him a way to attain everything he listed and then the list changed and qualifiers were added thus bringing us back to square one, if that's going to be a continuous cycle then it's a pointless exercise because yes, his goalposts are continuously shifting and will not be able to be met.
The whole idea of "shifting goalposts" and even moreso "continuously shifting goalposts" implies a type of insincerity in discussion on [MENTION=6689464]MoonSong[/MENTION]'s part that I think is not warranted.

When MoonSong clarifies that what was meant was not (7th level) Plane Shift but (2nd level) Rope Trick (ie an ability that comes on line at 3rd rather than 13th level) that is not a shifting of goalposts. It's just making it clearer what was desired, and why 5e doesn't deliver.

The obvious solution is to let the sorcerer PC learn Rope Trick. Is that going to break the game? Seems unlikely.

EDITED to clarify: Rope Trick may well be broken (I imagine this is something on which opinions differ quite a bit) but I don't see why it would be any more (or less) broken being on the list of a sorcerer's known spells than being in a wizard's spell book.
 

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