D&D 5E Monster Manual and Races

Mouseferatu · Jul 17, 2014

am181d said:
My concern is that if the hook is too distinctive, all of the members of that race will wind up feeling samey-samey. That's already too much of a problem (in my opinion) with the core races.

It's a balancing act, certainly. You have to be distinctive without being too restrictive. It can be tough.

That said, I personally prefer--if they have to err one way or the other--that they lean toward too much of both than not enough of either. We already have broad races, so I'd rather new ones be distinctive even if that does restrict them a bit.

Incenjucar · Jul 18, 2014

Mouseferatu said:
Okay, I can see how that would work. I'd like to see it played up in core write-ups of the race, though.

Of course you don't need a hook to play a member of a given race. That doesn't mean the race shouldn't have them.

It's a question of thematics and storytelling. Every race (IMO) should suggest a sort of story that either you couldn't get with humans, or at least is easier/different than it would be with humans. Being mechanically different isn't enough. With the partial exception of the classics (elves, dwarves, etc.) I'm a strong proponent of the idea that if a race doesn't innately offer a different story experience than playing a human, it's failed to justify its existence.

Not a universal opinion, I realize, but maybe it'll help explain what I'm looking for.

Whether or not WotC knows how to bring out the full flavor of a concept should not be what determines whether or not players can. The flavor ball gets dropped a lot in RPGs, but plenty of people can pick it up and run with it. Sometimes just putting out where people can get their grubby hands on it is enough.

Evenglare · Jul 18, 2014

That's what I love about being Aasimar, it IS the opposite of Tieflings. The whole damn life is a great balance. Tieflings- assumed to be evil and demonic, many of them are, but many of them rise above the stereotype, doing well for others. Sometimes they can become paragons of communities, or the great heroes of the world defending evil for the good of the people. Tieflings rise up. Aasimar are exactly the opposite. They start with rediculously high standards of perfection and inevitably they show they are simply mortals. They let people down no matter how hard they try, people become irritated and distrustful, they may fall... and hard. I could some being anti paladins, and theives much more than tieflings if not simply for spite. Community expectations of the drop and they are forced into what people say they should be. For tieflings you have redemption as a great possibile life. But Aasimar, they have no where to go but down, just how far they will go and still cop with thier selves is the point. There's a lot of good story to be had in both of these scenarious. So GIMMME MY AASiMAAR PLEASE

samursus · Jul 18, 2014

Interesting discussion regarding why they should or shouldn't include Aasimar as a playable race.

Unfortunately for those angry? about not having their favorite race included, I feel that it is simply a matter of popularity.

Wizards has a lot of data and I think the Aasimar proponents, no matter how passionate, are a tiny minority. Even if they added another half-dozen races, I don't think the Aasimar would place... otherwise we would have seen them. I don't think Wizards would arbitrarily snub a race because they, personally, only like "bad boys".

Remember, the 4e equivalent of Aasimar (which I felt were actually quite different than Aasimar and more attractive to me) didn't show up till PHB3.

In order to change things though, convincing others of the awesomeness Aasimars is a good place to start.

Hmm, as an afterthought, maybe Aasimar aren't very popular because most people can't relate to or imagine what it mean to be descended from "perfection". I think many of us, however, have direct experience of what it feels like to wrestle with our personal demons. Just a thought.

MoonSong · Jul 18, 2014

samursus said:
Interesting discussion regarding why they should or shouldn't include Aasimar as a playable race.

Unfortunately for those angry? about not having their favorite race included, I feel that it is simply a matter of popularity.

Wizards has a lot of data and I think the Aasimar proponents, no matter how passionate, are a tiny minority. Even if they added another half-dozen races, I don't think the Aasimar would place... otherwise we would have seen them. I don't think Wizards would arbitrarily snub a race because they, personally, only like "bad boys".

Remember, the 4e equivalent of Aasimar (which I felt were actually quite different than Aasimar and more attractive to me) didn't show up till PHB3.

In order to change things though, convincing others of the awesomeness Aasimars is a good place to start.

Hmm, as an afterthought, maybe Aasimar aren't very popular because most people can't relate to or imagine what it mean to be descended from "perfection". I think many of us, however, have direct experience of what it feels like to wrestle with our personal demons. Just a thought.

Deva are a phb2 race, so they didn't really happened that late into the edition, but rather early. And well, WotC has data on the character builder which doesn't have true Aasimar (and deva really lack that kind of hook, aasimar are humans expected to perform like angels, devas are angels who only fear being reincarnated as demons -that curiously never became playable-), so it isn't as if they have complete data on them. ultimately Planetouched are Planescape staples and we can have a little hope.

And on the experience one can sympathize with, many people have had at least once been subject to extremely high expectations beyond them, it isn't that uncommon. It isn't as if everybody has supernatural compulsions to do evil either.

Ruin Explorer · Jul 18, 2014

KaiiLurker said:
Deva are a phb2 race, so they didn't really happened that late into the edition, but rather early. And well, WotC has data on the character builder which doesn't have true Aasimar (and deva really lack that kind of hook, aasimar are humans expected to perform like angels, devas are angels who only fear being reincarnated as demons -that curiously never became playable-), so it isn't as if they have complete data on them. ultimately Planetouched are Planescape staples and we can have a little hope.

And on the experience one can sympathize with, many people have had at least once been subject to extremely high expectations beyond them, it isn't that uncommon. It isn't as if everybody has supernatural compulsions to do evil either.

I think more people have experienced unjustified prejudice against them based on their background/appearance/lifestyle etc. than have experienced problems from unreasonably high expectations, though. I mean, I know I've experienced both, but even a white male from the upper middle class from an academic family, I found the former far more of an actual problem than the latter. The latter disappoints people, but they start with a positive attitude and tend to still want to help you do better, and rarely present any kind of threat to you, whereas people making horrible assumptions about you is hard to fight/counter, and can present serious threats to lifestyle, livelyhood and even life and limb. "Imperfect Angel" is just not on the same scale as "Assuming you're actually a monster" (imo, and sorry to contradict Umbran there).

Tieflings don't have supernatural compulsions to do Evil in any edition but 3.XE/PF, note. People just inaccurately THINK that they do.

You're right re: Devas in PHB2, but they had tons of survey data from 3.XE too, and all the data from the official-play stuff, too. So I don't think this was a random decision.

They really need to change that name though... so bad... Deva wasn't a vast improvement given it often ended up pronounced as diva! "Oh you're a total Deva alright..."

Mouseferatu · Jul 18, 2014

KaiiLurker said:
(and deva really lack that kind of hook, aasimar are humans expected to perform like angels, devas are angels who only fear being reincarnated as demons -that curiously never became playable-)

It's fascinating to me how wildly different peoples' experiences are. I found devas far more interesting, and with far stronger hooks, than aasimars. I desperately hope they're back somewhere in 5E.

Pretty sure the game/cosmology can find room for both, though.

MoonSong · Jul 18, 2014

Mouseferatu said:
It's fascinating to me how wildly different peoples' experiences are. I found devas far more interesting, and with far stronger hooks, than aasimars. I desperately hope they're back somewhere in 5E.

Pretty sure the game/cosmology can find room for both, though.

I like both races very much, but I was deeply surprised when I read in wikipedia they were supposed to be the same just with different names. In my head they fill similar niches but aren't exactly exchangeable, among 4e races, Kalashtar come closer to fill the Aasimar niche IMO. But both Deva and Kalashtar come as too limited for me, they exclude a lot of possible personalities, and both are dettached from the world, the Devas might care, but they have nothing in stake in the world and the Kalashtar are more grounded, but they also lack true childhoods, naivety and innocence come as out of character for both of them. In the end I hope we can get all three, with the new edition having two feats for each race combo is not necessary, so it should be trivially easier to get a big book of races at some point, it should take a two page spread for each one of them tops with no need to introduce extra support.

Mouseferatu · Jul 18, 2014

The more I think about it, the more I'd like to see the deva and the aasimar as two sub-races of the same parent race. Why do some reincarnate and not others? Is it a gift or a curse? And so forth.

Lots of story potential for those who want it, easily ignored for those who don't.

qstor · Sep 5, 2014

Will there be guidelines to making creatures ie humanoids tougher? Like an orc fighter? Or just add creature abilities to a fighter?

That's one of the things I liked about 3e. That is was easy to add levels to humanoids.

Mike

D&D 5E Monster Manual and Races

Mouseferatu

Hero

Incenjucar

Legend

Evenglare

Adventurer

samursus

Explorer

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin

Ruin Explorer

Legend

Mouseferatu

Hero

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin

Mouseferatu

Hero

qstor

Adventurer

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