D&D (2024) Paul Hughes's Analysis of D&D 2024 Monster Manual monsters on Blog of Holding

SlyFlourish

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Paul Hughes, the lead designer of the Level Up Advanced 5e Monstrous Menagerie and writer of the excellent Blog of Holding, wrote an article building the D&D 2024 Monster Manual on a Business Card where he analyzes the statistics of monsters in the D&D 2024 Monster Manual and compares them to the previous. He then builds a statistic model that gives you the "best fit" for monster stats at any CR. We analyzed a lot of his math when writing Forge of Foes and building our own monster stats by CR chart, comparing it to other monster sources as well.

It's a great read and I'd love to hear what people have to think about it, including where it might not match up well.

One issue is the small data problem. The previous Monster Manual on a Business Card had significantly more monsters to analyze. Even with as many monsters as it has, there are somtimes very few monsters at higher CRs to give a good average baseline.

Still, I think its fascinating. Give it a read.
 

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I haven't read it yet (going to shortly), but my issue with his previous analysis was that it only look at certain statistics (IIRC). For instance, his original approach (again IIRC - it has been a long time) didn't take into account saving throws or monster features that affect CR. It just look at what the analysis gave to a monster of a certain CR, not how to design a monster. I found it to be very flawed IMO.

I wanted to get that off my chest before I look it over so it is clear where I am coming from. I guess I should ask: am I being clear?
 

Having looked at the article, your wonderful book "Forge of Foes," and watched the "Math of the 2024 Monster Manual" over on the Alphastream youtube channel, I have a feeling that WotC did not adjust properly for the rise in PC power levels. Instead they seemingly corrected for 2014 power levels. They mostly did this through DPR increases at high levels and by flattening monster power in each action. So you no longer have to play a monster optimally to achieve a performance that is at "CR level."

If we look at the spreadsheet shared on the aforementioned youtube video, link below, comparing the new Monster Manual to Forge of Foes, we see it is similar in power to the work for you and others did for 2014. But we know through additional features and powers, and the item crafting debacle, that PCs are far stronger than their 2014 predecessors. If Forge of Foes was correct in it's balance, which is subjective as balance always is, that creates an issue.

What appears to have happened was WotC adjusted Monster math to what 2014 should have been, in my opinion. They are now relying on the change to how you use challenge rating, and the aforementioned fact you no longer have to run monsters one specific way to get CR level performance, as the offsets to the PC power level increase.

I don't think this will be enough. I have a feeling 2024 monsters will continue to punch below their expected power levels. And that at levels 5 to 12, we will need to see a deviation upwards on the numbers to provide on CR challenge to average 2024 PCs. The current monsters will simply die too fast to our new super heroes.

One of the greatest youtube videos on the internet:
 

OK, I am going through it now, and here are my thoughts as I go through.

Point #1
The business card approach is good for a general idea / quick build monster. But doesn't really give you full monster creation guidelines. It is better, but I don't consider this much better than reskinning.

Point #2
I have an issue with what Paul thinks is most important, if this is all he is considering. I will keep reading to see if there if more to it.

"To do this analysis, I plugged in each monster’s statistics from the 2024 Monster Manual into a spreadsheet. The most important statistics, in my opinion, are hit points and damage per round, but we should also consider AC, attack bonus, and effect DC, and we might as well also look at correlations between the various statistics."

Point #3
Yep, here is my issue. It is not reverse engineering how WotC creates monsters, but really just an analysis of the monsters and then saying you can do X, Y, & Z to create "similar" monsters.

"I also want to add a disclaimer: my analysis is just a cursory one, using a monster’s raw numbers. It doesn’t weigh in the balance a monster’s special exception-based features and condition-imposing effects – for instance, I don’t try to judge whether knocking someone prone is as valuable as gaining advantage. I specially flagged a few monsters with major offensive or defensive features – the medusa, which can remove a character from play; the rug of smothering, which can share damage; and so on – and left these monsters out of my accounting. For the vast bulk of monsters, I just don’t account for these details."

Point #4
As an example of my points above, see below. Paul notes the demilich is a statistical deviant, but doesn't / can't tell us why. I am hoping to figure out why in my own analysis (which I was going to start today, but I guess I will start tomorrow - anyone got a 2024 monster spreadsheet that want to share?!)

"Now let’s compare all that information to CR 18! As you can see, all five of those lines come together in one point, at 180 hit points. That’s because there’s only one CR 18 monster in the MM, the demilich, which has 180 hit points. That tells us that we can’t put a lot of faith in that number – it’s only a single data point. (And in fact, the demilich happens to have exceptionally low hit points and high damage output for its challenge rating.)"

Point #5
He notes that monster HP doesn't really go up until about CR 17. That is surprising as I thought it would start closer to CR 10 or 11

Point #6
DPR sees a jump almost immediately compared to 2014 monsters. Damage increases about +7.5 damage per CR instead of 5 per CR. With another bump at CR 20.

Point #7
Attack bonus is basically unchanged

Point #8
AC has gone up approximately 1 point across all CRs in 2024 monsters vs 2014 monsters.

Point #9
No change in DC between 2024 & 2014

Point #10:
This is where Paul fails IMO, see below. He doesn't, as far as I can tell, take into account any of the stats and traits that affect HP & AC and, to a lesser extent, attack bonus and DPR. So he concludes that monsters are unbalanced around their CR. He thought this in 2014 and makes the same, though improved, conclusion for 2024. I agree certain monsters may not be balanced only based on HP and DPR (to be reductive), but if you factor in (as the 2014 guideline tell us too) saving throws, traits, and features - they do balance out (at least better than he supposes).

"According to 2014 monster creation guidelines, when you raise one statistic (or add a special feature or the ability to impose a condition), you lower another statistic accordingly. Therefore, even leaving aside special features and conditions, you’d expect an inverse correlation between a high stat in one area and high stats elsewhere. For example, if a monster has very high hit points, you’d expect something to be lower – damage, AC, etc – to compensate for it. However, my 2014 analysis came to a startling conclusion: there was no statistically significant correlation between high damage, AC, or hit points and low statistics elsewhere. In other words, among the monsters with high hit points, you couldn’t expect lower damage or other stats to compensate. This was an unexpected finding – and seems like a flaw in the 2014 monster manual, with especially high or low scores leading to unbalanced monsters!"

Point #11
Paul notes that the discrepancy between monster types has mostly disappeared. That is good to see. Dragons, as Paul notes, were notoriously OP for their CR. They are know inline with all other monsters.

Final Words;
An interesting article and analysis. But it falls short, IMO, of providing true monster design guidelines. It gives no guidance on how the interesting an unique features monsters have might impact their CR. Knowing HP, AC, attack bonus, DPR is a good starting point but it is the special little traits that make monsters interesting. Paul provides no means to accommodate those in your design.
 
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First I want to say I have not noticed a significant increase in PC power levels going from 2014 - 2024. I know others feel differently, but I haven't seen it. However, I do want to point a flaw in your analysis
But we know through additional features and powers, and the item crafting debacle, that PCs are far stronger than their 2014 predecessors. If Forge of Foes was correct in it's balance, which is subjective as balance always is, that creates an issue.
The item crafting debacle implies you view PC access to magic items as an unbalancing factor. However, magic items were always an unbalancing factor. Both the 2014 and the 2024 monsters are designed to face PCs without magic items, see below. So if a DM is giving PCs magic items. they need to buff monsters to keep up if they want to maintain the balance.

2024 DMG page 218:
Are Magic Items Necessary?
The D&D game assumes that magic items appear sporadically and that they are a boon unless an item bears a curse. Characters and monsters are built to face each other without the help of magic items, which means that having a magic item makes a character more powerful or versatile than a generic character of the same level. As DM, you never have to worry about awarding magic items just so the characters can keep up with the campaign’s threats. Magic items are truly prizes—desirable but not necessary.

Was this the correct way to do it? For me yes; however, I feel they failed to not only make this clear throughout the book, but the also failed to provide guidance on how to buff monsters for PCs with magic items (at least I don't think it is in the 2024 DMG, I haven't gone through it completely). That is not guidance I personal need, but it should be there for those that do.
 


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Final Words;
An interesting article and analysis. But it falls short, IMO, of providing true monster design guidelines. It gives no guidance on how the interesting an unique features monsters have might impact their CR. Knowing HP, AC, attack bonus, DPR is a good starting point but it is the special little traits that make monsters interesting. Paul provides no means to accommodate those in your design.

I also want to add a disclaimer: my analysis is just a cursory one, using a monster’s raw numbers.

Like I know we are hungry for monster design guidelines but he never set out to do so?
 



Like I know we are hungry for monster design guidelines but he never set out to do so?
IDK, that is what the monsters on a Business Card is (a monster creation guide) and it works well as a quick monster creation tool. It just doesn't take into account items needed for more detail monster creation. That is fine, if everyone is clear and aware of that.

Also, I am not personally hungry for monster creation rules, I am no longer designing monsters by CR. I am interested in monster creation though, so I want to figure it out.
 

All I ever really used the old one for was a general guideline anyway so this is fine. I'm generally taking an existing monster and adjusting CR or look to monsters at the CR I'm looking for inspiration for special abilities and features anyway.

More detailed rules would be nice but are not necessary for me.
 

All I ever really used the old one for was a general guideline anyway so this is fine. I'm generally taking an existing monster and adjusting CR or look to monsters at the CR I'm looking for inspiration for special abilities and features anyway.

More detailed rules would be nice but are not necessary for me.
I’ve never gotten to deep into the math of monsters. To me, it’s something you learn as a GM through trial and error and just feel.
 

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