D&D 4E Mike Mearls on how D&D 4E could have looked

OK on this "I would’ve much preferred the ability to adopt any role within the core 4 by giving players a big choice at level 1, an option that placed an overlay on every power you used or that gave you a new way to use them."
Basically have Source Specific Powers and less class powers. But I think combining that with having BIG differing stances to dynamically switch role might be a better idea so that your hero can adjust role to circumstance. I have to defend this NPC right now vs I have to take down the big bad right now vs I have to do minion cleaning right now, I am inspiring allies in my interesting way, who need it right now.

and the obligatory
Argghhhh on this. " I wanted classes to have different power acquisition schedules"

And thematic differences seemed to have been carried fine.
 
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pemerton

Legend
pemerton said:
DIfferent 5e players in this thread seem to be taking different views about whether or not there are level-appropriate DCs/actions in 5e. I think that at least shows that it's not clearly the case that there are.
Character knowledge/training, character history/network, items all play a roll on what may or may not be feasible.
As for rolling, unless there is stress put on the character during the action, many checks can be predetermined via the passive score (10 + modifier on the roll) in which case I mark it off as an immediate success whereas a lower level PC might be asked to make a roll.
OK, that all may be true. It reinforces my view that it's not clearly the case that there are level appropriate DCs, or indeed a clear methodology for determining what might be possible for a 15h level fighter along the lines I've described upthread.

To wit . . .

I don't think that's true... I think your question was a little unclear. Mechanically there are certain DC's a first level fighter can never attain. However the first step of determining whether there is even the possibility of a check in 5e is in the hands of the DM. I assumed you were familiar with the play procedures of 5e so I didn't think it was relevant to rehash the fact that the DM decides what a 1st level fighter vs. a 15th level fighter is capable of making a check for... I assumed you were asking what DC range was attainable by a fighter at 15th level vs. one at 1st level.
Upthread a number of posters - you in an earlier post, [MENTION=6780330]Parmandur[/MENTION], I think others too - have said that 5e uses bounded accuracy, in the sense that the DC for task X doesn't change across levels. (More than one poster has compared this to AC - the AC of a goblin is the same whether the to hit check is made by a 1st level or 15th level PC).

If now you're saying that DCs are in fact "subjective" - for non-combat, at least, if not for combat - then the difference from 4e seems to be more about the absence of a clear framework for bundling a series of level-appropriate DCs into an overall resolution framework (ie the skill challenge).

Anyway I've intended my claim to be clear: that 4e has a system that makes it straightforward for martial prowess to be displayed and resolved in a way that mitigates against tendencies in fantasy RPGing for playes of spellcasters to have a greater range of possibilities open to them, especially once we get into "epic" territory. I posted an actual play illustration.

I think the range of responses that has generated from 5e players - that the actual play event couldn't happen in 5e without using spells or magic (because martial PCs aren't supernatural), or that it would be about epic boons (although the illustration was of a paragon tier PC), or that it would be about setting a DC that a 1st level PC can't succeed at, or that it is about the GM deciding what is or isn't possible for a 15th level PC (which appers to straightforwardly contradict the bounded accuracy analysis) - illusrates that 5e is not clear on this. In practice I haven't seen any posts of 5e actual play that illustrate fighters doing the sort of thing described, but that doesn't mean it's not happening. But presumably not in any of the games whose players are posting in this thread!

EDIT to add:

But that's assuming I want that feel in my game. That's what people mean when they say 4e pushed/forced/catered to a particular playstyle. For some sticking their hands in the forge will be epic and mythical for other DM's doing something like that without magical aid is too gonzo and feels silly for their particular campaign. with the 5e approach it's modular depending on how the DM chooses to rule it and, as long as the DM is consistent should be fine.
Of cousre I'm talking about what I want in the game - if you follow the thread, you'll see that this discussion arose from discussing the adjudication of martial prowess, and how 4e supports that in various ways both combat and non-combat.

Of course, 4e is jsut as "modular" as 5e in this respect - nothing stops a GM deciding that the 15th level fighter can't do what I described, and the worst will be a modest bit of friction between the flavour of that decision, and the flavour of some paragon paths etc - but that friction will probably be no greater than in the 5e game where the fighter can survive being enveloped by a fire elemental but has his/her hands burn to a crisp if s/he stick them into a forge. What 4e does offer is a systematic framework for implementing whatever decision is made, via a DC-by-level chart and skill challenge system.

FURTHER EDIT:

As [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] and [MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION] have pointed out, 5e is not "modular" when it comes to spellcasters - they have a range of quite significant and fairly well-detailed abilities which establish their capabilities pretty straightforwardly.

And another point: in my 4e game, an epic-tier chaos sorcerer sealed the Abyss with an appropriate Arcana check, and sacrificing the appropriate resources. I've seen 5e GMs suggest that (i) in 5e Arcana is only about scholarly knowledge, and not manipulating magical phenomena; and (ii) that the appropriate way to handle that would be to undertake research, create a new spell etc.

In gameplay terms, undertaking research means playing the game so as to learn more from the GM about what action declarations are required to produce the desired result. It shifts the focus from adjudicating action resolutions to unfolding the GM's conception of the fiction. A further strength of the 4e system structure, in my view, is that it facilitates the former focus of play. (As [MENTION=6780330]Parmandur[/MENTION] and I discussed upthread, many/most D&D players prefer the second sort of focus. Hence they didn't like 4e. That only reinforces the distinction between 4e and 5e in this particular respect.)
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
* - never mind that in most normal D&D games there wouldn't just be Achilles; he'd have a whole party backing him up, each of similar power level to his.

Yes however in the movie making the champion a minion was designed to make both Achilles and Hector who still loses more awesome the Champion served his role. Its like you have THE Lancelot he needs to make Mordred aligned roundtable knights quake just a little even if he has promised not to turn the bastard into a pin cushion.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Achilles did get taken out of the story at the end of that war... so maybe the gods figured he had outgrown the mortal world.
 

Hussar

Legend
As a common thing one-shots - for or against the PCs - are a bad idea once beyond the very low levels. As an occasional spectacular exception that the players will talk about for years, though? Sure! Bring it on!

Lan-"and this right here is the base rationale behind every critical hit system ever made"-efan

Again, it depends on the system. Savage Worlds makes virtually everyone except for Wild Cards a one shot kill. And there are several systems that don't use HP. And, even as a Wild Card, you get stunned pretty often by a hit. In other words, combat is far more dangerous than it is in D&D. But, since D&D uses HP, combat generally isn't as dangerous as it is in other systems, so, we tend to play a LOT more combat in D&D than in other systems. Which, honestly is pretty darn fun too. :D

Just so I understand correctly, the power that you want a high level Fighter to have, the thing that will give them some kind of parity with the Magic-User, is the ability of holding the Magic-Users stuff in the forge while the Magic-User creates a Magical Item.

And this is the huge proud nail that you want hammered?

Obviously I can not speak for everyone but yeah as far as I am concerned the Fighter can hold as much of the Magic-Users stuff as they want.

Why is it "magic user stuff" to craft a magic hammer? Other than tradition, there's no real compelling reason to say that a fighter can't make his own magic weapon. The last Avengers movie showed exactly what it could look like with Thor essentially holding his hand (well his whole body) in the forge so they can make the new weapon. Crafting a magic weapon is only "magic user stuff" because that's the way it's always been.

And, well, I'd say you missed the larger point. We're arguing about whether or not a fighter should be able to do stuff at very high levels that a caster can do at much lower levels. In 5e, can your 15 strength character jump 20 feet using skills? Maybe. Depends on the DM and the dice. Oh, you're a caster? Go right ahead, no problems, no DM adjudication and no chance of failure (Jump spell, fly, and I'm sure there are other options). For some, this is a pretty large issue because it strongly narrows the narrative space that you can use unless you play a caster.

Of course, 5e solves this problem by making pretty much everyone a caster, so, that's one solution. :D

--------

And, just a point about tiers of play. It's not like 4e invented this out of nothing. The tiers of play are simply a recognition of how the game is presented in every previous edition. It's not like you take your 1st level characters into the Demonweb nor do you take your 15th level characters into the Caves of Chaos. Can you? Sure, but, 4e was pretty much on target here making explicit what was implicit in every other edition.

So, if the game virtually always follows that same path - zero to superhero - shouldn't the mechanics reflect that? A 1st level AD&D fighter is just as capable out of combat as a 15th level 1e fighter because 1e didn't really have any skill system. 2e added a skill system, but, since it was stat based and not level based, the effect was, by and large, the same. Your 1st level fighter and your 15th level fighter didn't really have much of a difference out of combat - they could talk just as well, hide just as well, jump just as far, ride a horse just as well. Virtually no difference.

3e started the path by making skills level based, but, it also wound up with the in-game problem that skilled characters would auto-succeed and non-skilled characters would auto-fail because the DC's scaled by level. Sometimes. But, 3e had the issue that some skills didn't scale at all, so, it became trivial to auto-succeed some skills. You have a +14 acrobatics means you can automatically move through enemy spaces, for example. Funnily enough, 3e fighters because very effective out of combat because of this because they could leverage their feats into skills and beat the scaling DC's routinely. 4e tried to mitigate the pass/fail problems by adding in leveling to all DC's but, again, you wind up with the treadmill and unfortunately, it was still quite possible to game the system and auto-succeed some skills.

5e uses static DC's that aren't supposed to scale. But, the scale is entirely dependent on the DM and most DM's are notoriously bad at calculating odds. A DC 20 is a HARD DC. This is reserved for things that most people will fail at most of the time. Which means you shouldn't see it all that often. DC 25 and higher should be seen once or twice in a campaign - these are legendary checks like scaling a waterfall or knocking down a castle door.

The problem is, many DM's don't see it that way. OH, you have a 60% chance of success? That's too easy. We'll fix that by jacking up the DC so now it's a "challenge". And, the non-caster classes get screwed over because it always comes down to the DM. If I cast a spell, I succeed. All the time. No chance of failure, no DM adjudication. But, if I don't play a caster and I want to do the exact same thing? Oops, sorry, nope, we're playing a "realistic" campaign. :uhoh:
 

Imaro

Legend
OK, that all may be true. It reinforces my view that it's not clearly the case that there are level appropriate DCs, or indeed a clear methodology for determining what might be possible for a 15h level fighter along the lines I've described upthread.

To wit . . .

Upthread a number of posters - you in an earlier post, @Parmandur, I think others too - have said that 5e uses bounded accuracy, in the sense that the DC for task X doesn't change across levels. (More than one poster has compared this to AC - the AC of a goblin is the same whether the to hit check is made by a 1st level or 15th level PC).

If now you're saying that DCs are in fact "subjective" - for non-combat, at least, if not for combat - then the difference from 4e seems to be more about the absence of a clear framework for bundling a series of level-appropriate DCs into an overall resolution framework (ie the skill challenge).

Anyway I've intended my claim to be clear: that 4e has a system that makes it straightforward for martial prowess to be displayed and resolved in a way that mitigates against tendencies in fantasy RPGing for playes of spellcasters to have a greater range of possibilities open to them, especially once we get into "epic" territory. I posted an actual play illustration.

I think the range of responses that has generated from 5e players - that the actual play event couldn't happen in 5e without using spells or magic (because martial PCs aren't supernatural), or that it would be about epic boons (although the illustration was of a paragon tier PC), or that it would be about setting a DC that a 1st level PC can't succeed at, or that it is about the GM deciding what is or isn't possible for a 15th level PC (which appers to straightforwardly contradict the bounded accuracy analysis) - illusrates that 5e is not clear on this. In practice I haven't seen any posts of 5e actual play that illustrate fighters doing the sort of thing described, but that doesn't mean it's not happening. But presumably not in any of the games whose players are posting in this thread!

EDIT to add:

Of cousre I'm talking about what I want in the game - if you follow the thread, you'll see that this discussion arose from discussing the adjudication of martial prowess, and how 4e supports that in various ways both combat and non-combat.

Of course, 4e is jsut as "modular" as 5e in this respect - nothing stops a GM deciding that the 15th level fighter can't do what I described, and the worst will be a modest bit of friction between the flavour of that decision, and the flavour of some paragon paths etc - but that friction will probably be no greater than in the 5e game where the fighter can survive being enveloped by a fire elemental but has his/her hands burn to a crisp if s/he stick them into a forge. What 4e does offer is a systematic framework for implementing whatever decision is made, via a DC-by-level chart and skill challenge system.

I think what we're saying is that 5e is very easy to mod if you want to run the game in a different way from the default presented out of the box.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
And you don't want one-shots in war-games because it's no fun.
in war games you have so many 1HIT minions that one shotting is happening all over the place the leader types on the field being 4Hit characters are however where the player interest got invested.... ;)
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I think what we're saying is that 5e is very easy to mod if you want to run the game in a different way from the default presented out of the box.

In 4e when I make changes the clear math gives me very good ideas about the repercussions of the changes can you say that about 5e?

My son made a 5e character his first it was a Paladin who was able to single handedly defeat an encounter that was for a party 3 levels higher. If he did everything right the people making the game do not even understand the implication of their numbers.
 
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pemerton

Legend
Part of the overall narrative balance though is that martials don't have resource limitations like magic users...?
I think that this "limitation" is easily overemphasised. A 10th level 5e full caster has 15 spells per day, plus cantrips and probably class features that increase the effective number of spells. Eg a 10th level wizard can recover one expended spell per short rest - many 5th level spells are at least as effective as action surge, possibly moreso. Some spells are rituals. Etc.

Once you have 15+ spells memorised, they're not super-scarce.
 

pemerton

Legend
So your Dwarf wants to help in the creation of a magical artifact and the most appropriate skill that you can think of to fit that situation is Endurance. How does how tough your character is narratively apply to this situation?
I'll post the actual play report again:

Another thing that had been planned for some time, by the player of the dwarf fighter-cleric, was to have his dwarven smiths reforge Whelm - a dwarven thrower warhammer artefact (originally from White Plume Mountain) - into Overwhelm, the same thing but as a morenkrad (the character is a two-hander specialist). And with this break from adventure he finally had he chance.

Again I adjudicated it as a complexity 1 (4 before 3) skill challenge. The fighter-cleric had succeeded at Dungeoneering (the closest in 4e to an engineering skill) and Diplomacy (to keep his dwarven artificers at the forge as the temperature and magical energies rise to unprecedented heights). The wizard had succeeded at Arcana (to keep the magical forces in check). But the fighter-cleric failed his Religion check - he was praying to Moradin to help with the process, but it wasn't enough. So he shoved his hands into the forge and held down the hammer with brute strength! (Successful Endurance against a Hard DC.) His hands were burned and scarred, but the dwarven smiths were finally able to grab the hammer head with their tongs, and then beat and pull it into its new shape.

The wizard then healed the dwarf PC with a Remove Affliction (using Fundamental Ice as the material component), and over the course of a few weeks the burns healed. (Had the Endurance check failed, things would have played out much the same, but I'd decided that the character would feel the pang of the burns again whenever he picked up Overwhelm.)

In running this particular challenge, I was the one who called for the Dungeoneering and Diplomacy checks. It was the players who initiated the other checks. In particular, the player of the dwarf PC realised that while his character is not an artificer, he is the toughtest dwarf around. This is what led him to say "I want to stick my hands into the forge and grab Whelm. Can I make an Endurance check for that?" An unexpected manoeuvre!
 

pemerton

Legend
Let's be honest here, D&D models D&D and virtually nothing else. Trying to tie things to genre fiction is an exercise in futility. It just doesn't work because, at its heart, D&D is a wargame. And you don't want one-shots in war-games because it's no fun. Genre emulation was never the goal of D&D.
There are assertions to the contrary in some canonical D&D materials (eg Gygax's DMG).

And in this thread there have also been assertions about genre - that fighters should be Conan rather than Achilles rather than Beowulf rather than Hercules.

I don't think that 4e does a good job of modelling the pacing experience of fiction, because 6 seconds of sword play takes much more time than it would in a film (even allowing for some slo-mo etc, in a film it wouldn't be more than 10 to 20 seconds) and more time than it would in a literary recount (a few sentences will do the job in both REH and JRRT).

But I think it does a reasonable job of modelling the in-fiction events of fiction. When the 1st level PCs in my game defended a homestead against goblin attack, there was the right mix of one-shots (vs minions) and back-and-forth (vs standard gobllins). At mid-heroic, the fighter leaping over a pack of hyenas (swarm) evading their bits (opportunity attack for moving within an adjacent square) to fight the gnoll on the other side seemed right. At mid-paragon, the paladin and fighter cutting their ways through phalanxes of hobgoblins (swarms again) seemed right. At mid-epic, the fighter leaping off the PCs' flying tower to land on a great white dragon and drive it to the ground (mehcanicaly, by knocking it prone) seemed right.

I could easily envisage running a LotR-flavoured game in 4e (Gandalf would be a warlord with wizard multi-class to gain Scorching Burst as an encounter power). Probably Conan also, although that does push some boundaries a bit harder (eg the way 4e healing works - being inspired by a friend's words of encouragement or blessing - fits JRRT better than REH) - I think a Conan game would need to use predominantly minion and swarm opponents, and really emphasise skill challenges as the main focus of play, even moreso than LotR.
 

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