Interpreting Barbarian Rage in Non-combat Situations

Coroc · Aug 28, 2018

For intimidation especially I totally would allow other attributes to key it off, I even think this is suggested somewhere in RAW.

E.g. a fighter might use STR a Dwarf eventually CON, heck even a rogue performing some twirling with his daggers in a threatening way could use DEX.

clearstream · Aug 28, 2018

Coroc said:
For intimidation especially I totally would allow other attributes to key it off, I even think this is suggested somewhere in RAW.

E.g. a fighter might use STR a Dwarf eventually CON, heck even a rogue performing some twirling with his daggers in a threatening way could use DEX.

It is suggested, but concretely, when will Charisma ever get used to break down doors?

I think the game runs fine if the Barbarian (Strength 18, Charisma 8) just isn't articulate enough to make clear their threat. Instead, let the Bard explain how his large friend here gets angry... That way, each player gets pay off for what they chose to invest in.

This isn't a matter of balance, for me. Strength in 5e is down-powered from 3e so I don't feel it is OP for it to be used for Intimidate, just that... it's unnecessary, and a bit facile. These people live in a world where a gnome weed, who looks like she could be knocked down by a heavy shower of dandelion seeds, can dominate dragons and make stuff disintegrate.

Coroc · Aug 28, 2018

[MENTION=71699]clearstream[/MENTION]
Well, easy. The fighter might flex his muscles to intimidate the orc, but he will need charisma to get his beer served faster, because the innkeeper calls the watch if he tries it another way.

clearstream · Aug 28, 2018

Coroc said:
[MENTION=71699]clearstream[/MENTION]
Well, easy. The fighter might flex his muscles to intimidate the orc, but he will need charisma to get his beer served faster, because the innkeeper calls the watch if he tries it another way.

The orc has dealt with tough guys her whole life, and the fighter - lacking Charisma - just isn't striking a convincing tone. She tells the fighter if he touches her, she'll have an Eye of Gruumsh on him so fast it'll make his head swim. And she knows, the big guy isn't really the threat anyway, it's that half-elf next to him covered with eldritch tattoos.

It's always easy to narrate straight back to Charisma for social skills. And I think - when a player takes a high Charisma and spends their limited proficiency picks on social skills, they're telling me something about the game they hope to play. If they decide to dump Charisma and put everything into fighting abilities, then they shouldn't expect to talk their way into what they want. Trade-offs add interest.

Swarmkeeper · Aug 28, 2018

MNblockhead said:
Is it ever appropriate per RAW for a Barbarian to rage outside of combat?

{snip}

I see nothing unbalancing about this. It is unlikely that a barbarian is going to use rage outside of combat. But when life-and-death non-combat strength checks are required, it just seems right to allow a barbarian to hulk out and burn a resource to help a party continue forward.

I'm with you. Rule of cool here. The barbarian is battling the environment and would get to Rage accordingly at our non-AL tables (assuming the PC has at least one use of Rage remaining, of course.) As long as it is a hazardous situation, I'd let it last the full minute without the silly slapping from other PCs.

For strict AL RAW, I'd say that the Barb gets to rage for at least 6 seconds and then only can continue if taking damage each round from the turbulent waters or rocks or jellyfish or other environmental factors.

iserith · Aug 28, 2018

MNblockhead said:
1. Without Rage when the flash flood first hit. I succeeded and grabbed a tree on some higher ground.

2-4 With rage, I saved three characters from drowning and being swept off a cliff. Basically swimming to each throwing them to safety, and letting other players get to them and stabilize/heal them.

Not sure if the DM fudged with the distances, but it would be easy to rule that a drowning character was pinned underwater against a rock, or that I'm swimming faster than the water is dragging them (in a flash flood though? hmm....) But it was theater of the mind and not grid play, which made it a lot easier for the DM to handwave some of this in favor of cool narrative.

As DM, I'd probably know about how many checks there'd be more or less or how much time it would take, based on your approach to the goal. At this point I'd probably say that in order to keep up a rage in this situation you have to take some damage attempting this rescue. This seems like a reasonable trade-off to me. Then each check to rescue a comrade would test how much damage you took. If you succeed, you take less damage. If you fail, you still rescue another PC, but you take more damage (relatively speaking).

MNblockhead · Aug 28, 2018

clearstream said:
I always wonder when Strength is suggested for social skills, does anyone ever allow Charisma to break down doors?

Narratively - the Barbarian Rages and attempts to Intimidate through Strength, and winds up in a cell to cool off for the night, given her Charisma 8 and lack of proficiency.

Well, if you are using "doors" metaphorically...

MNblockhead · Aug 28, 2018

clearstream said:
It is suggested, but concretely, when will Charisma ever get used to break down doors?

I think the game runs fine if the Barbarian (Strength 18, Charisma 8) just isn't articulate enough to make clear their threat. Instead, let the Bard explain how his large friend here gets angry... That way, each player gets pay off for what they chose to invest in.

This isn't a matter of balance, for me. Strength in 5e is down-powered from 3e so I don't feel it is OP for it to be used for Intimidate, just that... it's unnecessary, and a bit facile. These people live in a world where a gnome weed, who looks like she could be knocked down by a heavy shower of dandelion seeds, can dominate dragons and make stuff disintegrate.

I'm with Clearstream here. Using your muscles, size, etc., to intimidate someone requires a level of social skills. I like how my 6 foot tall, 500-pound turtle man with moss and lichen growing on his back speaks so slowly and awkwardly that it is hard for most people to take him seriously. There is plenty of example in literature and real life of people not being intimidated by those stronger and larger then them. This misunderstanding of the danger someone poses leads to interesting plot developments. Think Lennie in Of Mice and Men or think of large but slow or awkward kids who get bullied by people half their size (e.g., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN7OzN8wn4M).

If you have seriously low charisma, but are tough, and want to intimidate them--hit 'em.

I can see why a DM would be tempted to let a player intimidate by demonstrating strength (flexing muscles, breaking something) or dexterity (fancy swordwork). But that does reduce the usefulness of Charisma. If you want to be an intimidating fighter or barbarian, don't make CHA your dump stat.

MNblockhead · Aug 28, 2018

DM Dave1 said:
I'm with you. Rule of cool here. The barbarian is battling the environment and would get to Rage accordingly at our non-AL tables (assuming the PC has at least one use of Rage remaining, of course.) As long as it is a hazardous situation, I'd let it last the full minute without the silly slapping from other PCs.

For strict AL RAW, I'd say that the Barb gets to rage for at least 6 seconds and then only can continue if taking damage each round from the turbulent waters or rocks or jellyfish or other environmental factors.

I love the jelly fish imagery.

"Yay! I just saved my friend. That makes me relieved and less rageful, even though my other friends are drowning. OW!!! DAMN JELLY FISH! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHH! MUST SAVE OTHER FRIEND FROM FLASH JELLY-FISH FLOOD!"

I agree, though, with the overall point. I thik I would just have the barbarian take damage from using his athletics to reach his comrade instead of ignoring rocks and other hazards, with the normal, higher-level damage still possible for failed checks.

Swarmkeeper · Aug 28, 2018

clearstream said:
I always wonder when Strength is suggested for social skills, does anyone ever allow Charisma to break down doors?

MNblockhead said:
Well, if you are using "doors" metaphorically...

"There are things known and there are things unknown..."

So... Charisma (Perception) check?

Interpreting Barbarian Rage in Non-combat Situations

Coroc

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clearstream

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MNblockhead

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MNblockhead

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Swarmkeeper

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