The Confederate Flag

Dannyalcatraz · Aug 14, 2015

Umbran said:
There does come a point, however, where both sides are guilty of a great deal. At that point, trying to place blame, and say that you act because of Them, becomes a weak position*, and is no longer a constructive approach.

Ultimately the Golden Rule applies, and you reap what you sow.

*You acted because they did. But they did because you did. But then you did because of that thing they did 20 years ago. And that was for the thing you did 40 years ago... and it is turtles all the way down. There is a time when you must understand history, but stop blaming it or continuing it, if you want to keep the moral high ground.

"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind."
Mahatma Gandhi

Umbran · Aug 14, 2015

Dannyalcatraz said:
"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind."
Mahatma Gandhi

Yep.

And, the simple matter that a person should not be held accountable for things done before their lifetime. They maybe responsible for dealing with the current situation, but they are not accountable for past deeds.

Hussar · Aug 14, 2015

As I said before, reconciliation not reparation.
[MENTION=55961]goldomark[/MENTION]'s points would carry a lot more water if you didn't have New Brunswick, right next to Quebec, which is a fully integrated, bilingual province with French and English given equal protections and rights. No one complains about New Brunswick being French.

And as far as repression or racism goes, Quebec has pretty much everything it ever asked for. It's own police force, it's own legal system (distinct from the rest of Canada), every one of their laws is protected by the Constitution (mostly because a very short time after the Constitution was written in the early 1980's, Quebec invoked the Notwithstanding Clause and made every Quebec law exempt from the Canadian Constitution), there is no barrier to French Canadians getting jobs or education anywhere in Canada, and all of this is paid for in part by the rest of Canada.

And, if you want to talk about people making fun of Quebec, umm, what province is exempt from that? Never heard a Newfie joke? Or Western Canada redneck jokes? Good grief, taking the piss out of other provinces is a national pastime. Is it racism? I doubt it. No more than taking the piss out of someone for their sports teams.

Again, I really have to ask, what oppression? What rights or freedoms do you not enjoy as a French Canadian that I, as an English Canadian, do? Is there any restriction on your travel? Are there any restrictions on who you marry? Where you choose to worship? Are French Canadians subject to violence? Can you own land? Is there any restriction to opening a business or getting a loan based on the fact that you're French Canadian?

In what way is a French Canadian treated as a second class citizen?

nightwind1 · Aug 15, 2015

goldomark said:
What do state rights have to do with slavery and a symbol of slavery?

They thought the "states" should have the "rights" to own slaves, of course.

MechaPilot · Aug 16, 2015

So, a little story.

Yesterday was payday. After work, I went to the bank (I opted out of direct deposit at my place of employment because I wouldn't receive my earnings until the Monday morning after payday, a whole three days later). While pulling into the bank parking lot, I noticed a pickup truck parked in the lot. It was heavily rusted around the wheel wells, and there was a flagpole mounted to the flatbed of the truck. Yup, there was a confederate flag flying from the flagpole. It wasn't even a small flag. It was larger than the bed of the truck, as if it were some kind of redneck blanket for picnics, or for covering up the bed when you're in the mood for some semi-private cousin-bangin'.

Whoever owns that truck is a total douche. I mean, confederate flag aside, who flies an easily 8 foot flag from their vehicle in traffic? It's long enough to smack the windshield of a car stopped behind it at a traffic light, and it obviously obstructs the view of other drivers on the road.

Dannyalcatraz · Aug 16, 2015

quote-when-someone-shows-you-who-they-are-believe-them-the-first-time-maya-angelou-207070.jpg

Kramodlog · Aug 16, 2015

Hussar said:
So ten years of bombings, murdering and injuring hundreds of innocent people, is justified because of Trudeau? Are you freaking kidding me?

What I said went right over your head, didn't it.

Again, what institutional violence? Even before the FLQ crisis, what violence?

You mean like, for example, how in 1918 the army was sent in Québec to violentely crush people who opposed conscription? People died during those events.

You, yourself, talk about the Catholic Church and the issues of education? Guess what? That's entirely your own issue. That's got nothing to do with English Canada. You wanted Catholic schools and you got Catholic schools.

I guess you also miss the part where I said that the 1960 ment a change in our fiscal policy because we needed to reach modernity fast.

But, again, you're talking about issues forty or more years old. Why drag this up?

Read the thread. Context is there. It was partial explaination for historic reason as to why we needed money to enter modernity.

Put it this way. You're fluently bilingual (I assume, your English is certainly very good). Do you think you would have any difficulties applying to any university in Canada? Would you be turned away because you are from Quebec? Do you honestly think there is, today, any impediment to getting an education, a job or pretty much anything you want, simply because you come from Quebec?

Roughly 17% of Québécois are bilingual, so it means the majority of us will not be able to get jobs if english is a necessity. And it shouldn't be when you are in Québec.

Good grief, the top ranked university, Laval, is IN Quebec. If there was this institutional discrimination, why would the best schools in the country be in Quebec?

I suggest you read once more what I wrote, as right now you are once more adressing strawman.

Quebec has its own police force, unlike most provinces. Is the QPP targeting French Canadians and no one is hearing about it?

I guess you didn't read what I said to Umbran when I said that institutional violence as stopped right now. It seems to be a theme in your response. Not reading and/or missing the point.

And, if there was this institutional discrimination, why are French Canadians OUTSIDE of Quebec doing perfectly well?

They aren't. There numbers are shrinking, they are poorer and service in their tongue (judicial, medical and educational) is diminishing, not that it was ever very strong.

It's a shame that Quebec is as poor as it is. There's no reason for it. There's absolutely no reason why Quebec is not a have province other than the fact that Quebec itself keeps shooting itself in the foot.

So, to be clear, you deny the negative impact of centuries of colonialism on our economy or did you miss that too?

tomBitonti · Aug 16, 2015

goldomark said:
But it isn't a competition. I won't say that today we are in the same situation as black people in the US or Jews in Nazi Germany. things have improve, but it isn't like there is a level at which you can complain and before you reach that level you need to shut up.

To say, that the condition here in the US warrants placement alongside Nazi Germany (even as an example of a lesser case) is ... notable.

There are certainly degrees of discrimination, say, ethnic cleansing as happened in Germany, or more recently in what used to be Yugoslavia, to the Apartheid in South Africa, to the lesser forms which we have in the US.

... which evolved out of slavery, which is (say) somewhere between Apartheid and Nazi Germany.

I find it sobering, and saddening, that the US merits an entry on the scale of comparisons.

I'm curious, too, how other folks place the US on that scale, in particular, folks from other countries, who, I think, will have a very different perspective than many people in the US.

(This is from the perspective of a person who is mostly white -- I have a mixed Eastern European and Italian ancestry, so my skin has a typical Mediteranean olive cast -- and who has a very limited direct experience with discrimination.)

Thx!

TomB

Kramodlog · Aug 16, 2015

Umbran said:
My search shows that Quebec is on the lower-end of income inequality in Canada- meaning that the difference between high and low earners in Quebec is *less* than many other places in Canada.

We have more social programs in Québec, so there is less inequality. We've come a long way.

I haven't been able to find statistics of how Francophones actually earn less than Anglophones, though. Do you have citations?

Salaries are lower in Québec than in Canada, if you can translate. The GDP is about a fifth of Canada's while we are a fourth of the population (so less GDP per capita).

As has been noted, your Prime Ministers come from Quebec more often than not, recently? Is inequality in other offices or branches documented?

It doesn't that when a PM is from a province that he'll favor that province. Trudeau, who comes from Québec, is a good example of a Pm that didn't do us any favor. He campaign against Québec's independence during the 1980 referendum. What help tip the scale in his favor was that he promised reform so that Québécois would have a better lot in Canada. That reform took the shape of a consitution. He negociated with the other Prime Ministers of the 10 provinces including Québec's PM. Ultimately, Québec's PM was set aside and a secret meeting was held in a kitchen to reach a deal. In Canada that is known as the Kitchen Meeting. In Québec it is a betrayal called the Night of Long Knives. Two nations, two histories. To this day, federalist and independentist PMs of Québec have not signed the 1982 constitution as it is seen as disfavorable, to say the least, to Québec.

Obama is a black president elected in the US. Does it mean racism toward black people has ended in the US?

Honestly, this comment about Québécois PMs in Ottawa, is really a comment that says there are too many Québécois politicans in Ottawa. There was even a political ad, that I cannot find, that said that in the 90s I believe.

As for inequality in other branches, this comes from the Commissioners of Official languages:

From 2004 to 2006, the OCOL published three studies on the use of the official languages in the workplace. The first showed that English remains dominant in the organizational culture of departments located in the National Capital Region, primarily because senior management does not do enough to set an example regarding the equality of the two official languages.

The letter of the law and its application are two things.

The OCOL recognized that language of work is a weak link in the implementation of the OLA. In other words, the reality on the ground fails to reflect the letter and spirit of the OLA (Official Language Act).

http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/LOP/ResearchPublications/prb0256-e.htm

You do get to a problem, though - some Francophones in Quebec have been trying to distance themselves from other Canadians for decades. When you actively try to sell yourselves as different and separate, can you really be surprised if they treat you as if you were different and separate? Minorities in America have been fighting for greater inclusion - it seems that Francophones have been fighting for exclusion. So, there may be some of what I said before in this - be careful what you wish for.

Heh, that is if you ignore that we've been treated as different and inferior for quite sometime and still are. Just look how we are called freeloaders when we aren't the one benefiting the most from qualization payments. It isn't like it only comes from us. Now we just want to rule ourselves instead of having stuff imposed. Most minorities do not have the possibility to form a different country, we do. I think that this is in part why we want independence rather than inclusiveness. Besides, it has been tried and failed many times. Inclusiveness for Canadians means being on top.

The FLQ were trying to bomb people and places since 1963, kidnapped government people in 1970, killing one of them when their demands were not met.

Laporte died by accident. He tried to flee and he was chocked when they tried to hold him back.

You want to claim the following police action was unprovoked?

Heh. I'm saying the rule of law should always apply, because when it doesn't you see innocent people getting jailed and violence used for political end. Innocent people jailed and political intimidation is exactly what happened during the October Crisis and there are no justifications for that.

If you poke a bear enough, it is hard to understand being put out that it bites.

We aren't talking about bears.

On a metric by metric basis, these things could be compared, but there is no overall objective measure of racism, so I don't know about levels of it. I can only speak to whether I think a particular reaction is justified, given the situation as I understand it. My understanding in this matter is, of course, limited. There does come a point, however, where both sides are guilty of a great deal. At that point, trying to place blame, and say that you act because of Them, becomes a weak position*, and is no longer a constructive approach.

Ultimately the Golden Rule applies, and you reap what you sow.

Like bombings and independentist movements, yes.

Kramodlog · Aug 16, 2015

Hussar said:
[MENTION=55961]goldomark[/MENTION]'s points would carry a lot more water if you didn't have New Brunswick, right next to Quebec, which is a fully integrated, bilingual province with French and English given equal protections and rights. No one complains about New Brunswick being French.

Acadians are poorer than anglophones and there was an anti-french party in NB for a while in the 80s and 90s. Anti-french sentiment is doing well.