House Rule: Proficiency in all saves

Xeviat · Jun 22, 2019

Hi everyone.

I've been using this house rule for a while but only up through 7th level. I'd be curious what everyone thinks.

I gave all characters, monsters, and NPCs proficiency in all saves. Since this functions largely as a +2 save bonus in the beginning, I increased the save DC formula from 8+Prof+mod to 10+Prof+mods.

Initially, I was going to give characters +2 to their class saves, but I decided against it. I felt that characters already have their high stats and low stats to differentiate their saving throws.

This does mean I need to address a few classes that get additional saving throw proficiencies to determine what would be good replacements.

I do this because everyone's DCs scale but many saves don't end up scaling. They become larger and larger weak spots, and although one bad save doesn't spell death like it did in older editions, it can still be pretty bad.

What are some consequences you see? Any ideas for what to do with the monk and rogue abilities that grant extra proficiencies?

Xaelvaen · Jun 22, 2019

So, up through 7th level, everyone is proficient in all saves, but the save DC is increased by 2. This means class specific save bonuses do not matter until level 9, if I'm understanding correctly, when the proficiency reaches +4 (since at 5,6, and 7 everyone gains the +3 to all saves). Thus at 9th level, your 'focused' saves increase to +4, but all the others remain at +3.

With the save DC increased to 10, then the +4 bonus truly represents a +2 bonus, and the +3 (non class saves) represents a +1 bonus. It's not a terrible idea, if I've understood you correctly. In that vein, I don't think you'd need to change how the 'more save proficiencies' works, since it'll pay off the same at levels 9 and higher.

The drawback is, that before level 5, having proficiency is meaningless, since the DC was raised to 10. So for the first 4 levels of play, no one gets that +2 bonus to make saves easier - so there is an element of delayed power. The rogue won't get out of the way better than anyone else, save for their dexterity score, until level 9. All in all, it seems like a nice balance starting out, and provided no one minds that delay in power at your table, the math isn't bad by any means.

Note: All of that is of course assuming I understood your 'up to level 7' comment correctly >.>

Xeviat · Jun 22, 2019

Xaelvaen said:
So, up through 7th level, everyone is proficient in all saves, but the save DC is increased by 2. This means class specific save bonuses do not matter until level 9, if I'm understanding correctly, when the proficiency reaches +4 (since at 5,6, and 7 everyone gains the +3 to all saves). At this point, your 'focused' saves increase to +4, but all the others remain at +3.

No, everyone adds their proficiency bonus to all saves. My debate was weather or not to give everyone +2 in their former proficient saves. If I don't give out the +2, it's actually a nerf of 2 relative to DCs for the classes former proficient saves.

Now, your only saving throw growth is from ability score growth.

Xaelvaen · Jun 22, 2019

Xeviat said:
No, everyone adds their proficiency bonus to all saves. My debate was weather or not to give everyone +2 in their former proficient saves. If I don't give out the +2, it's actually a nerf of 2 relative to DCs for the classes former proficient saves.

Now, your only saving throw growth is from ability score growth.

I gathered that part, but you said "So up through 7th level" making me think the 'everyone has proficiency in all saves' thing cut off at 7th level haha. So the proficiency in all saves caps at +3, and no one gets any save increase after that?

FrogReaver · Jun 22, 2019

so for an equal level caster and an equal level PC the prof mod will cancel out and the difference will simply be the difference in stats

so maybe -1 vs 15. or +5 vs 15
Max spell success chance (assuming -1 is lowest stat) = 75%
Max spell failure chance = 55%

I'd say +2 bonuses would be the most I'd want from any single ability.

I would probably redo all other save bonuses to be +1 unless it would have previously been +4 or higher and then it would be +2.

Xeviat · Jun 22, 2019

Xaelvaen said:
I gathered that part, but you said "So up through 7th level" making me think the 'everyone has proficiency in all saves' thing cut off at 7th level haha. So the proficiency in all saves caps at +3, and no one gets any save increase after that?

I've only ran games that have gone up to 7th level I mean. That's all I've seen this in play at.

Xaelvaen · Jun 22, 2019

Xeviat said:
I've only ran games that have gone up to 7th level I mean. That's all I've seen this in play at.

Awesome - now I get it, sorry for the confusion!

With that in mind, a static bonus of +1 or +2 does seem appropriate for the class features that give additional proficiency bonuses. You could also go with a dice for fun. In many of my 5e games, we like to go with 'Proficiency as Dice'; +2 = d4, +3 = d6, and so forth. So you could always have those class features give +1d4 to those particular saves. It obviously adds swing and unpredictability, but that's not always a bad thing where saves are concerned.

DND_Reborn · Jun 22, 2019

We added a "tier advancement" house rule where characters can add proficiency in a saving throw at 5th, 11th, and 17th levels. Since characters begin with two saves, they can eventually have proficiency in five out of the six ability scores.

Tony Vargas · Jun 23, 2019

Xeviat said:
. Since this functions largely as a +2 save bonus in the beginning, I increased the save DC formula from 8+Prof+mod to 10+Prof+mods.

I do this because everyone's DCs scale but many saves don't end up scaling.

Yeah, most saves not scaling is an obvious problem. Cancelling out the initial +2, though is just shifting the issue to 1st level in a way.

I wouldn't have raised the save DC, instead, give the initial +2 to the normally-proficient saves, and just the scaling over that to the bad saves.

FrogReaver · Jun 23, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
Yeah, most saves not scaling is an obvious problem. Cancelling out the initial +2, though is just shifting the issue to 1st level in a way.

I wouldn't have raised the save DC, instead, give the initial +2 to the normally-proficient saves, and just the scaling over that to the bad saves.

For his system I would have made it a +1 and had it scale to +2 at somewhere between 9th and 13th level.

I would have done the same +10 change to DC calculation as it ties it into the attack mechanic and makes level and stat actually be the major impactful differneces with a small benefit to class save proficiency.