Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 and 3 Rules, Pacing, Non-RPGs, and G

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.


“Old School Games have a lot of failure, more mediocre outcomes... and the brilliant stroke that suddenly feels astonishing because there is something there to contrast it with. New School Games are grey goo.” Jeffro

Last time I talked about some differences between “Old School” and newer approaches to RPGs, especially related to story. Here are some more.
[h=3]Rules[/h] The difference in “schools” is not about rules. Rules are not sacred, nor do they fit for every person. I think about rules in terms of game design. Occasionally choices designers make in games are arbitrary, one is as good as another. Some of these choices, the game designer(s) might want to change after publication, if they could. And over time, a game designer might make different choices for rules simply because tastes/trends change. For these reasons it makes no sense, to me, to adhere strictly to every rule in an RPG set.

Jeffro Johnson goes back to rules before AD&D (first edition as we tend to call it), or rules intended to substitute, such as Moldvay-B/X-Basic rules. So Jeffro says thieves must have d4 for hit points, because the rules he loves specify that.

I’m much more willing to vary from the original rules in order to make the game better (from my point of view, of course), so my thieves/rogues have d6s, can use bows (Robin Hood), and vary in other ways from the original rules. My 1e clerics can choose one of three types of sharp weapons (two-handers, one-handed swords, bow and arrow) and use those weapons as well as the blunt ones - because it’s better for the game. They can memorize twice as many spells as they can cast. And so on.

But a GM can make his game Old or New regardless of the actual rules. Some rules make it easier to tell stories (e.g. FATE). Simpler rulesets in general give the GM more freedom to tell stories, as there are fewer rules to get in the way of the story, and likely less “rules lawyering”.
[h=3]GM Role[/h] In terms of the two major conceptions of the GM’s role, the GM as rules arbiter and the GM as a sort of god, which works better for the storytelling that’s part of New School? I think rules arbiter is much less effective, as the rules can get in the way of the story. GM as rules arbiter tends to go with long rulesets (which more likely need an arbiter), and rules-heavy games get in the way of story-telling. Rules-light games ought to be better for GM storytelling. Players who don’t want the GM to control the story may prefer rules-heavy RPGs. These are tendencies, of course, not certainties, and likely there are counterexamples.
[h=3]Pacing[/h] Pacing is a big part of the difference between the two extremes. Good pacing (in novel and film terms) calls for alternating lows and highs, to make the highs that much more effective.

Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail. “Loot drops” are boring when every monster has a loot drop. Boatloads of treasure become boring when you always get boatloads of treasure. “No one ever gets in serious trouble” is boring. In other words, the New abandons good pacing in favor of enabling “no negative consequences” or just “no losses”. You can certainly do that, but it sounds tedious to me.
[h=3]Non-RPGs, too[/h] This Old/New dichotomy can be seen clearly in board and card games as well. Such games have moved away from the traditional direct competition, and from high levels of player interaction, to parallel competitions that are usually puzzles (i.e., have always-correct solutions) rather than games (which do not have such solutions). Each player pursues his own puzzle down one of the "Multiple Paths to Victory," that is, following one of several always-correct solutions provided by the designer.

"As an Action RPG, the best thing about Torchlight II is the way loot, skill choices, and chance bubble over into a fountain of light and treasure at the whiff of a right-click, every single time, for as long as you can keep going." PC Gamer magazine, 2012

We see the difference in video games, too, but for commercial reasons those games have gone far into the New. To begin with, computers lend themselves to avatar-based "experiences" (forms of story) rather than games. Also, computer games of all types are far into reward (or at least, lack of negative consequences), having left consequence (Old School) behind some time ago. In other words, you’re rewarded for playing while not having to worry/take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. (There are exceptions of course.) In the extreme, players will blame the game if they don’t succeed. If you make a free to play video game (a very common type now), practically speaking you MUST make it easy and positive so that players will stick around long enough to decide to provide you with some revenue via in-game micro-transactions.

(Editor's Note: We decided to add in Lew's third article, below, so it puts all of his points in context; please see my comment below).

Here are some Old/New School differences in actual gameplay.
[h=3]Strategy Over Tactics[/h] Military strategy (what you do before battle is joined) is de-emphasized in opposite-of-old-school games. Why?

  • Good strategy requires planning; tactics can become standardized, rule of thumb, easier
  • If the GM is telling a story, he or she wants players to follow the script, not devise their own ways of doing things overall (which is what strategy is all about)
Tactical games, on the other hand, are all about immediate fighting, what 4th edition D&D was built for, what many computer RPGs are built for because computers are at their best in tactics and worst in strategy.
[h=3]Hand-Holding[/h] Old School games are often about exploration, about finding/identifying the objectives. And recognizing when something about a location/opponent makes it too dangerous to take on right now.

Something like a secret door becomes a “dirty GM trick” instead of a challenge for the dungeon-delving skills of the party. “New” games are about being guided by the game (GM) to where the fight is, then fighting, then getting the loot. (You recognize the description of typical computer RPGs, especially MMO RPGs?)

In other words, the GM “holds the hands” of the players, guiding them rather than leaving them to their own devices. Every GM does this on occasion, but it’s the norm in the extreme of New School.
[h=3]What’s Important in Play?[/h] In Old School, it’s the success of the party that counts, much more than the success of the individual. This is a “wartime” attitude now quite uncommon in the USA, but common amongst the Baby Boomer wargamers who originated RPGs. In the extremes of the newer school, it’s the individual that counts (e.g. as expressed in “All About Me” RPGs), not the group. This makes a huge difference in how people play the game.
[h=3]Sport or War?[/h] I talked about this in an earlier column (RPG Combat: Sport or War?). To summarize, in war everything is fair, and stratagems – “a plan or scheme, especially one used to outwit an opponent” - are the ideal. If you get in a fair fight, you’ve screwed up: fair fights are for suckers. That style puts a premium on intelligence-gathering and on strategy. Combat as sport looks for a fair fight that the players will just barely manage to win, often as managed by the GM. Combat as War is less heroic, but it’s a lot more practical from the adventurer’s point of view. And for me, a lot more believable. If a fight is truly fair, you’re going to lose 50% of the time, in the long run. That’s not survivable.
[h=3]Nuance[/h] There are lots of “in-betweens”, of course:

  • What about a campaign where the party can suffer a total or near wipeout, but someone has left a wish with a reliable soul who can wish away the disaster. They can fail (lose), but most or all of them will survive.
  • What about the “All About Me” style I wrote about recently? Usually, there is no possibility of failure, but a GM could put a little failure into the equation if they wished.
  • What about the campaign where everyone knows their character is doomed to die, likely before reaching (in AD&D terms) 10th or 11th level? Then glory (and a glorious death) often becomes the objective.
  • What about the campaign where characters normally survive, but when someone does something egregiously stupid or foolish, the character can die?
  • You can hand-hold players to the point of combat, and still make that combat deadly.
RPGs can accommodate all kinds of tastes. But we don’t have to like every kind, do we?

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

AriochQ

Adventurer
1e and 2e are not old school. They are too rules dense, and both editions strongly discourage house rules,

Not sure I agree with this. While I didn't have the broadest experience during the 1e/early 2e era, every table I played at was heavily house ruled. It was almost required given the complexity of the rules and relative lack of interaction with other gamers outside of conventions, college clubs, or Dragon Magazine.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I agree with Umbran. We can't discuss NS D&D as if it is the same as other NS games. This has caused confusion and arguments on this thread, for sure.

Thinking just about D&D, we need to send the game to middle school. 1e and 2e are not old school. They are too rules dense, and both editions strongly discourage house rules, lest the unwary GM brings the whole game tumbling down. It makes sense. Gygax wanted a ruleset which would be consistent no matter where you played. It was also there to support tournament play. Having said this, D&D hadn't shed all of its old school roots. It still relied on player skill over character skill, and was usually played as a series of obstacles that clever players could overcome. You were expected to bring your A game, not play out your own character's flaws and foibles. This was the period of heavy simulation, which spanned about two decades.

2e started focussing more on story. The kit books gave players more control over character choice. The end of 2 e foreshadowed what was coming in 3rd, as the game morphed into NS. NS gave players more choices, but like in Advanced, there was an expectation rules would be followed. Story began to become more and more important, and character skill became more relevant than player skill. 4e tended to be less story driven, although some players have found it can be used to be more story driven. Players continued to be central, even being able to plot out their own heroic destinies, and choose preferred treasure. 5e is seeing a bit of return to old school, with a looser ruleset, and a more streamlined system. It has lightly borrowed from NS games outside D&D.

So, OD&D, and basic/expert are old school. 1st and 2nd are middle school, and 3rd - 5th are NS. I feel adding that middle bridge helps define the editions better.

I don't think this is correct either. Lots of Old school and OSR GMs use 1st edition. Many have negative opinions with 2nd, but not because of the core system as much as the change in aesthetics, the shift to more story in mid-90s and the optional material (but you can run a 1E module easily using 2E). To me, 2E might be regarded as a cut off point, but 3E is a much clearer dividing line. I think the cut off was much more general in the 90s, as TSR was adapting to the emergence of vampire and you even saw this in the progression of many of the 2E lines. But with a lot of the early 2E stuff, the biggest difference is the aesthetics and the removal of content that was controversial during the Satanic Panic.
 

Not sure I agree with this. While I didn't have the broadest experience during the 1e/early 2e era, every table I played at was heavily house ruled. It was almost required given the complexity of the rules and relative lack of interaction with other gamers outside of conventions, college clubs, or Dragon Magazine.

I think there are two things going on here. One is you have the system developing over time. The other is unified mechanics became more of an accepted concept after 2000. I still don't think unified systems are always better. I used to think that, but then when I went back to the earlier editions to play them, I noticed my games felt and ran very differently (in a very good way). There were lots of reasons for this. But basically I had struggled to run a proper Ravenloft campaign using 3E. It just never felt the same as it had when I ran it in high school. I chalked that up to nostalgia. Then, almost half seriously, I started a 2E Ravenloft campaign again. That instantly felt to me, at least in the GM chair (can't speak for my players) just like the mood and atmosphere of my old campaigns. I believe part of it was the lack of unification of the system meant different features of the game actually felt different in a tactile way. You were not just rolling a d20 for everything in just about the same way (excepting things like weapon damage and such). Other aspects were lack of strong social mechanics and investigative mechanics. That stuff can be found in the supplements but in the core PHB (the 89 one) there is no bluff or intimidate. You have a NWP (which were optional) for Etiquette but that was essentially a knowledge skill (you were not supposed to roll it to determine an outcome but to determine what you knew so it could inform you playing the character in that situation). 3E also had more rules that were clear about how all characters interact with the environment (and they were unified). Some people may look at these things and see progress or development. But I genuinely don't believe game mechanics are as cut and dry as mechanical technology. Unified mechanics are a solution to a problem, but they also change the feel of the game in a substantial way IMO. I get that unified mechanics, having all rolls shoot for high results, and a mechanics for all occasions is more accepted these days. I just think there is value in going back and checking again to see how the system works. A lot of people may do what I did and decide they like the newer approaches (and that is fine). But I genuinely went in thinking I had remembered it being wonky, and came out really impressed with the result compared to what I was experiencing with 3E.

That said, this is one of the problems the OSR has tackled already. There are lots of versions of OD&D and AD&D that are streamlined, cleaned up, more organized and less piecemeal than the originals. One of the values of the open license approach is people can essentially make the version of D&D they want to play. So a lot of the stuff people complain about when they look at 1E or OD&D has already been addressed by OSR designers.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
I would agree. When this relative newtimer reads through older editions of D&D, I get the impression that I am dealing with a system that was cobbled together over time from various subsystems as need arose. There is not a lot of cohesion to it. Sure, it may have held by "rulings not rules," but "making up more rules" nevertheless seems like the consequence.

This is exactly how 1E developed. It wasn't really designed per se. It has lots of different ad hoc subsystems that were developed separately and then collected---this is explicitly noted in the introduction of either the 1E PHB or DMG, I forget which. Some used a D6, some a D20, percentile, some roll high, some roll low, etc.

Of course this still exists in 5E in many respects. Think of the areas where an opposed roll or ability check are used instead of a skill check or vice versa. The underlying logic is essentially "who knows, it seemed good to us!" It's a lot less than was the case in 1E, though, of course.

(I am not a fan of ad hoc subsystems. I think in many cases they could be dispensed with and replaced with a much more unified mechanic.)


Indeed, the basic idea in the emboldened sentence has arguably been the prevailing trend of RPG design of the past 1-2 decades, even among some OSR games. This feature has a practical purpose. It's simply easier to teach new players one basic mechanic (or guiding principle) than two or more. And the less that you have to teach the game, the quicker that the players can immerse themselves in the game.

100%.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
Not sure I agree with this. While I didn't have the broadest experience during the 1e/early 2e era, every table I played at was heavily house ruled. It was almost required given the complexity of the rules and relative lack of interaction with other gamers outside of conventions, college clubs, or Dragon Magazine.

Many were also not explicitly house ruled due to the frequent incomprehensibility of 1E rules. I mean, did anyone actually run initiative the way 1E wrote it? Probably a few people, but not many. I have a PhD in a mathematical science and can't figure out what the hell EGG wanted me to do!
 

Arilyn

Hero
Not sure I agree with this. While I didn't have the broadest experience during the 1e/early 2e era, every table I played at was heavily house ruled. It was almost required given the complexity of the rules and relative lack of interaction with other gamers outside of conventions, college clubs, or Dragon Magazine.

Oh yes, they were heavily house ruled, but if you read the rules in Advanced, house ruling is discouraged. Advanced falls under OS because of how most people played. In that sense, yes it's OS, but, that was not Gygax's intention. He believed he had given players all the tools they needed, so house ruling would be minimal to none. His goal was a player in Austin could move to Halifax, join a group, and have rules and advancement speed, etc. be pretty much the same as it was with his Austin group.

This was the period when Gygax fought a lot with players who had their own ideas of how the game should be run. This was the time period where many of his articles in Dragon were considered tyrannical. People continued to do their own thing, or course. In response, Gygax became very protective of his game and kept a tight lid on changes and additions.

OS embraces a loose ruleset, and GM rulings on the spot. This is not Advanced, as written. Basic which was published in parallel, was supposed to fill that niche. Advanced overshadowed it, partly because of the terms advanced vs. basic.

Looking back, despite the large number of house ruling groups, Advanced begins a shift away from old school towards a more rules dependent mindset. This continues with the more story driven play that 2e adopts, which leads us to 3e. Advanced is not NS, but as written, it's not exactly OS either. If we are going to examine games, we need to look at the intent of the rules, even if players are straying from that intent because it is the RAW that future game developers are going to use as the springboard for newer editions.
 

Aldarc

Legend
3E also had more rules that were clear about how all characters interact with the environment (and they were unified). Some people may look at these things and see progress or development. But I genuinely don't believe game mechanics are as cut and dry as mechanical technology. Unified mechanics are a solution to a problem, but they also change the feel of the game in a substantial way IMO. I get that unified mechanics, having all rolls shoot for high results, and a mechanics for all occasions is more accepted these days. I just think there is value in going back and checking again to see how the system works.
What sometimes gets missed in the discussion - not saying that is the case here - is how many recent indie RPG games were equally a reaction against what you describe with post-3e D&D skills and environment interaction. It was not just OSR as a reaction against post-3e D&D, but also a lot of story/character-driven RPGs as well (e.g., Fate, PbtA, etc.).

Probably the best example is Powered by the Apocalypse. From what I have been told its system developed from Vincent Baker as a response to how he felt play was emerging in D&D around skills and mechanics, such that players were declaring mechanics instead of fiction: e.g., "I will make a Perception check." This is one reason why the PbtA games stress players declaring the intent of their action in the fiction first and then GM determines what "Moves" are triggered by those actions, which require player rolls. The unified mechanic (2d6 + modifiers) sets limits on the fiction (i.e., failure, complicated success, and full success) while also propelling the fiction forward as a forefront element.

That said, this is one of the problems the OSR has tackled already. There are lots of versions of OD&D and AD&D that are streamlined, cleaned up, more organized and less piecemeal than the originals. One of the values of the open license approach is people can essentially make the version of D&D they want to play. So a lot of the stuff people complain about when they look at 1E or OD&D has already been addressed by OSR designers.
I would agree here as well. Some OSR games still seem a bit too verbose for my liking, but others present an incredibly streamlined game with a good layout that makes for easy reading for easily surmisable play.
 

Probably the best example is Powered by the Apocalypse. From what I have been told its system developed from Vincent Baker as a response to how he felt play was emerging in D&D around skills and mechanics, such that players were declaring mechanics instead of fiction: e.g., "I will make a Perception check." This is one reason why the PbtA games stress players declaring the intent of their action in the fiction first and then GM determines what "Moves" are triggered by those actions, which require player rolls. The unified mechanic (2d6 + modifiers) sets limits on the fiction (i.e., failure, complicated success, and full success) while also propelling the fiction forward as a forefront element.
.

I think many sections of the hobby reacted in different ways to 3E (how could you not it was an enormous boom and the way the game was played was quite reshaped by so much of that system). Don't get me wrong. I played a ton of 3E and loved it. I just found there were changes to the game culture and to the game that frustrated me after a while (and in specific types of campaigns). I do think it is true that the OSR and the story game crowds both were often trying to address the same problem or frustration. They just tend to answer the problems in strikingly different ways. Both were frustrated by 90s storytelling approaches and by railroads, but both seem to have answered those problems very differently. The OSR response to railroad is largely emphasizing sandbox and world in motion, while the story response (just judging by some of the conversations I've had here with narrative gamers) seems to be giving players more narrative control. Both these things resolve the railroad issue, but they produce completely different types of play.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

AriochQ

Adventurer
If we are going to examine games, we need to look at the intent of the rules, even if players are straying from that intent because it is the RAW that future game developers are going to use as the springboard for newer editions.

An equally compelling, and possibly stronger, argument could be made for the opposite viewpoint. That we should use how the games were actually played, rather than intended. AD&D was rarely run 'as intended'. In 40 years, I have never run into a group that ran by the book initiative. Yet, most of the AD&D groups I have played with over the years had most of the OS characteristics I outlined in my earlier post.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Oh yes, they were heavily house ruled, but if you read the rules in Advanced, house ruling is discouraged.

I find that... largely irrelevant in its classification.

Especially when one of the major forces in the community at that time was Dragon Magazine, which contained a lot of house rule choices. The message becomes mixed - "DOn't use house rules, but here are some house rules for you to use!" And the effect... was heavy house ruling.
 

Related Articles

Remove ads

Remove ads

Top