Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 and 3 Rules, Pacing, Non-RPGs, and G

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.


“Old School Games have a lot of failure, more mediocre outcomes... and the brilliant stroke that suddenly feels astonishing because there is something there to contrast it with. New School Games are grey goo.” Jeffro

Last time I talked about some differences between “Old School” and newer approaches to RPGs, especially related to story. Here are some more.
[h=3]Rules[/h] The difference in “schools” is not about rules. Rules are not sacred, nor do they fit for every person. I think about rules in terms of game design. Occasionally choices designers make in games are arbitrary, one is as good as another. Some of these choices, the game designer(s) might want to change after publication, if they could. And over time, a game designer might make different choices for rules simply because tastes/trends change. For these reasons it makes no sense, to me, to adhere strictly to every rule in an RPG set.

Jeffro Johnson goes back to rules before AD&D (first edition as we tend to call it), or rules intended to substitute, such as Moldvay-B/X-Basic rules. So Jeffro says thieves must have d4 for hit points, because the rules he loves specify that.

I’m much more willing to vary from the original rules in order to make the game better (from my point of view, of course), so my thieves/rogues have d6s, can use bows (Robin Hood), and vary in other ways from the original rules. My 1e clerics can choose one of three types of sharp weapons (two-handers, one-handed swords, bow and arrow) and use those weapons as well as the blunt ones - because it’s better for the game. They can memorize twice as many spells as they can cast. And so on.

But a GM can make his game Old or New regardless of the actual rules. Some rules make it easier to tell stories (e.g. FATE). Simpler rulesets in general give the GM more freedom to tell stories, as there are fewer rules to get in the way of the story, and likely less “rules lawyering”.
[h=3]GM Role[/h] In terms of the two major conceptions of the GM’s role, the GM as rules arbiter and the GM as a sort of god, which works better for the storytelling that’s part of New School? I think rules arbiter is much less effective, as the rules can get in the way of the story. GM as rules arbiter tends to go with long rulesets (which more likely need an arbiter), and rules-heavy games get in the way of story-telling. Rules-light games ought to be better for GM storytelling. Players who don’t want the GM to control the story may prefer rules-heavy RPGs. These are tendencies, of course, not certainties, and likely there are counterexamples.
[h=3]Pacing[/h] Pacing is a big part of the difference between the two extremes. Good pacing (in novel and film terms) calls for alternating lows and highs, to make the highs that much more effective.

Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail. “Loot drops” are boring when every monster has a loot drop. Boatloads of treasure become boring when you always get boatloads of treasure. “No one ever gets in serious trouble” is boring. In other words, the New abandons good pacing in favor of enabling “no negative consequences” or just “no losses”. You can certainly do that, but it sounds tedious to me.
[h=3]Non-RPGs, too[/h] This Old/New dichotomy can be seen clearly in board and card games as well. Such games have moved away from the traditional direct competition, and from high levels of player interaction, to parallel competitions that are usually puzzles (i.e., have always-correct solutions) rather than games (which do not have such solutions). Each player pursues his own puzzle down one of the "Multiple Paths to Victory," that is, following one of several always-correct solutions provided by the designer.

"As an Action RPG, the best thing about Torchlight II is the way loot, skill choices, and chance bubble over into a fountain of light and treasure at the whiff of a right-click, every single time, for as long as you can keep going." PC Gamer magazine, 2012

We see the difference in video games, too, but for commercial reasons those games have gone far into the New. To begin with, computers lend themselves to avatar-based "experiences" (forms of story) rather than games. Also, computer games of all types are far into reward (or at least, lack of negative consequences), having left consequence (Old School) behind some time ago. In other words, you’re rewarded for playing while not having to worry/take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. (There are exceptions of course.) In the extreme, players will blame the game if they don’t succeed. If you make a free to play video game (a very common type now), practically speaking you MUST make it easy and positive so that players will stick around long enough to decide to provide you with some revenue via in-game micro-transactions.

(Editor's Note: We decided to add in Lew's third article, below, so it puts all of his points in context; please see my comment below).

Here are some Old/New School differences in actual gameplay.
[h=3]Strategy Over Tactics[/h] Military strategy (what you do before battle is joined) is de-emphasized in opposite-of-old-school games. Why?

  • Good strategy requires planning; tactics can become standardized, rule of thumb, easier
  • If the GM is telling a story, he or she wants players to follow the script, not devise their own ways of doing things overall (which is what strategy is all about)
Tactical games, on the other hand, are all about immediate fighting, what 4th edition D&D was built for, what many computer RPGs are built for because computers are at their best in tactics and worst in strategy.
[h=3]Hand-Holding[/h] Old School games are often about exploration, about finding/identifying the objectives. And recognizing when something about a location/opponent makes it too dangerous to take on right now.

Something like a secret door becomes a “dirty GM trick” instead of a challenge for the dungeon-delving skills of the party. “New” games are about being guided by the game (GM) to where the fight is, then fighting, then getting the loot. (You recognize the description of typical computer RPGs, especially MMO RPGs?)

In other words, the GM “holds the hands” of the players, guiding them rather than leaving them to their own devices. Every GM does this on occasion, but it’s the norm in the extreme of New School.
[h=3]What’s Important in Play?[/h] In Old School, it’s the success of the party that counts, much more than the success of the individual. This is a “wartime” attitude now quite uncommon in the USA, but common amongst the Baby Boomer wargamers who originated RPGs. In the extremes of the newer school, it’s the individual that counts (e.g. as expressed in “All About Me” RPGs), not the group. This makes a huge difference in how people play the game.
[h=3]Sport or War?[/h] I talked about this in an earlier column (RPG Combat: Sport or War?). To summarize, in war everything is fair, and stratagems – “a plan or scheme, especially one used to outwit an opponent” - are the ideal. If you get in a fair fight, you’ve screwed up: fair fights are for suckers. That style puts a premium on intelligence-gathering and on strategy. Combat as sport looks for a fair fight that the players will just barely manage to win, often as managed by the GM. Combat as War is less heroic, but it’s a lot more practical from the adventurer’s point of view. And for me, a lot more believable. If a fight is truly fair, you’re going to lose 50% of the time, in the long run. That’s not survivable.
[h=3]Nuance[/h] There are lots of “in-betweens”, of course:

  • What about a campaign where the party can suffer a total or near wipeout, but someone has left a wish with a reliable soul who can wish away the disaster. They can fail (lose), but most or all of them will survive.
  • What about the “All About Me” style I wrote about recently? Usually, there is no possibility of failure, but a GM could put a little failure into the equation if they wished.
  • What about the campaign where everyone knows their character is doomed to die, likely before reaching (in AD&D terms) 10th or 11th level? Then glory (and a glorious death) often becomes the objective.
  • What about the campaign where characters normally survive, but when someone does something egregiously stupid or foolish, the character can die?
  • You can hand-hold players to the point of combat, and still make that combat deadly.
RPGs can accommodate all kinds of tastes. But we don’t have to like every kind, do we?

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Hussar

Legend
Honestly people should read the 1E DMG for themselves and decide, rather than take poster's words for it on the internet. My attitude toward the book is it is an engaging read, with a strong personality, and offers up all kinds of good advice to pick through. The value it had for me, was I was genuinely struggling trying to find a satisfying way to approach the game at a certain point in the early 2000s. I just was not happy with the mainstream GM advice at the time, and frustrated by many of the modules adventure guidelines for the game. Reading the 1E DMG is what knocked me out of that. You don't have to read it and take in everything, you can pick and choose what works for you. But the enthusiasm in the book is infectious and the advice I personally found very helpful (even if I wasn't running AD&D at the time).

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean that the book was without value or that there aren't all sorts of great ideas there. There really are. But, like you say, one should read the book. And, well, I'll stand by what I said. It tends to be all over the place when it comes to advice and whatnot. And, really, there's more to AD&D than just the DMG. You have the other books as well as The Dragon and modules and other goodies.

Which, again, coupled with what I mentioned earlier and the cargo cult aspect of many gamers, means that trying to pin down what 1e is actually about is very difficult.
 

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GreyLord

Legend
Though I'm one who identifies the OSR with how it was in the beginning rather than what it has been taken to be today, I find the conversation regarding the changes that occurred with 3e vs. D&D prior to that pretty easy to also identify as something that those who play Old School games and games that are similar to those that are What we may consider New School.

The lack of a unified mechanic is something that is very prevalent in the older D&D systems (OD&D to early 2e), while 3e attempted (though not completely, especially if you get into all the additional rulebooks that came out in it's lifetime) to create a unified system.

In some ways, I suppose that seeing this could be something that represents the shift in mindset from older gamers who loved AD&D or BECMI/BX to those that love to play the Newer games since then. The entire idea of a unified mechanic seems to be emphasized in MANY of the more popular games today.

It existed in some games that would be seen as the same era as 1e (so it's not a NEW idea), but the prevalence of it being so sought out as a RPG creation tool today was brought up in 3e and it is the deviation from 3e around the same time that you see the birth of the OSR.

A unified mechanic CAN make it FAR easier for people to learn. Simplified ideas (such as going up rather than THAC0) also can make it easier to learn. I never could understand how one could have a problem understanding THAC0, but to this day I still have players who have been playing for decades who cannot understand it. They CAN understand the mechanics of 3e.

A unified mechanic can also make it easier to rule something on the fly and guess correctly. With 3e, even if you didn't know the exact rule on something, you could take a reasonable guess based on the unified mechanic and stand a greater chance of actually using the rule from the rulebook by chance than you would in AD&D or BECMI.

You can see this even more strongly with 5e. Because 5e focuses on the entire Proficiency bonus as a standard it makes it far easier, not just to help people learn, but also to guess at certain rules when you don't remember them, OR to create a rule that flows easily with the rest of the system, it makes it far easier to run for many people.

For Old OSR players who are looser with inclusion (so not just AD&D and BECMI/BX and OD&D games, but others similar, so C&C as well) I could see them easily feeling that this is a decent way to show differences between Old School ways of thought vs. New School Ways of thought.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Unified mechanics are not necessarily as antithetical to Old School sensibilities as one may be led to believe. RuneQuest (1978) essentially had a unified roll-under skill percentile mechanic that was the basis for Chaosium's Basic Role-Playing system. It's not "Old School D&D" but it definitely would have fallen within the spectrum of "old school TTRPGs."
 

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean that the book was without value or that there aren't all sorts of great ideas there. There really are. But, like you say, one should read the book. And, well, I'll stand by what I said. It tends to be all over the place when it comes to advice and whatnot. And, really, there's more to AD&D than just the DMG. You have the other books as well as The Dragon and modules and other goodies.

Which, again, coupled with what I mentioned earlier and the cargo cult aspect of many gamers, means that trying to pin down what 1e is actually about is very difficult.

I think when you start throwing in supplementary books for any editions, it seriously complicates the conversation. Even 3E changes radically when you do that. With AD&D though, I always tended to view most of the material in other books outside the core as optional and up to the GM to include or not. This felt particularly true in 2E when so many features of the game (even in the core) were tagged as "optional". I think that is fine, an edition or a school doesn't have to be wholly unified. The thing in my mind that makes this period of gaming very different from post-2000, was there seemed to be much more of an expectation that the GM ultimately made the call on this stuff. We had class books with kits in 2E, but the impact they had on the table was much smaller than the 3E complete books for example, because there was, at least in the area I gamed in, a cultural shift toward an expectation that whatever was in the rules, was permissible. In 2E I never had a problem explaining to a player that some optional kit went against the spirit of the setting I ran, or seemed imbalanced to me, but in 3E I routinely ran into that debate (where a player would insist they should be able to use a prestige class or feat from one of the complete books, even if the flavor felt wildly out of place to the setting). I don't think it was an intentional shift, but I do think it is clear the books prior to 3E were mainly written to the GM, and the books after 3E were largely written to the players, and that, coupled with a very comprehensive rules system, helped create a different mentality. I could be wrong about that, but it was my impression at the time.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
I disagree with [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION]. My experience was 180 degrees off his. I had players in 2E demand to use splat books with most of the group supporting them. I grew a backbone when 3E came out. "Core or the Door" was my motto. If was not in the PHB you could not bring to the table.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
So the difference that I am seeing is that in an Old School game the DM would say no to optional material and in a New School game the DM would say yes to optional material.
 

I disagree with [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION]. My experience was 180 degrees off his. I had players in 2E demand to use splat books with most of the group supporting them. I grew a backbone when 3E came out. "Core or the Door" was my motto. If was not in the PHB you could not bring to the table.

But your example though, you had a personal change in how you handled these situations. I pretty much handled it the same between both editions, I just found players were much more resistant to not allowing the various Complete books material. However my approach wouldn't have been 'core or the door'. I have a style of play I prefer, but a game group is made up of many people. If there are six people in the room and I am the only person who wants to play a game where the campaign options are limited, I have no problem adjusting. Different story if five people want more limits and only one player wants no limits.
 

Hussar

Legend
So the difference that I am seeing is that in an Old School game the DM would say no to optional material and in a New School game the DM would say yes to optional material.

Which was very much the opposite of my experience. In Old School games, if it had a TSR logo on it, it was fair game, outside of maybe Dragon magazine stuff. People that I gamed with very much seemed to expect that anything that TSR banged out was going to be used at the table. Whereas IME, in 3e, people seemed far more likely to stick to core or maybe borrow a few bits and bobs outside of core.

Funny thing was, I was often trying to encourage my players to use stuff outside of core and they more often than not refused to even look at it.

:D
 

Sadras

Legend
Funny thing was, I was often trying to encourage my players to use stuff outside of core and they more often than not refused to even look at it.

Do you still follow that outlook? I'm more conservative in allowing use of 3rd party material. I already provide additional perks/bonuses so I'm loathe to permit further variation in our 5e games
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
Gygax, despite his stated desire to have everyone playing the same game, gave us a wonderfully modular system just perfect for tweaking and kitbashing to suit a particular table or playstyle by any DM willing to spend the time - and many were. And oddly enough, I suspect this malleability helped make the game overall more popular rather than less. <...> And, later, the RPGA and organized play; a conflict in design requirements that still plagues the game today.

I tend to think that that's what he said at the time and place. The "official" was really due to the fact that in the late '70s people often went from campaign to campaign with the expectation of bringing their character. Think quasi-Adventurer's League, I guess. I'm sure DMs would represent themselves as being "official" in various ways.


I wouldn't go so far as to say "heavy" simulation, if only because there's so many ways simulation can be enhanced even in 1e. But at least there was a nod toward simulation.

1E is very split about this. Some aspects of it were pretty simulation-oriented (such as the infamous polearm collection and weapon vs. armor table), and others were explicitly not.

I see late-era 2e and early 3e as middle school.

Yes, there's no truly neat dividing line but instead a lot of incremental adaptation. To be fair to the original post, it didn't say there was a dichotomy either.

But after people have learned the game there comes a time where a unified mechanic morphs from a feature into a bug.

I think it can often lead to lazy thinking on the game designers' parts.
 

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