Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 and 3 Rules, Pacing, Non-RPGs, and G

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.


“Old School Games have a lot of failure, more mediocre outcomes... and the brilliant stroke that suddenly feels astonishing because there is something there to contrast it with. New School Games are grey goo.” Jeffro

Last time I talked about some differences between “Old School” and newer approaches to RPGs, especially related to story. Here are some more.
[h=3]Rules[/h] The difference in “schools” is not about rules. Rules are not sacred, nor do they fit for every person. I think about rules in terms of game design. Occasionally choices designers make in games are arbitrary, one is as good as another. Some of these choices, the game designer(s) might want to change after publication, if they could. And over time, a game designer might make different choices for rules simply because tastes/trends change. For these reasons it makes no sense, to me, to adhere strictly to every rule in an RPG set.

Jeffro Johnson goes back to rules before AD&D (first edition as we tend to call it), or rules intended to substitute, such as Moldvay-B/X-Basic rules. So Jeffro says thieves must have d4 for hit points, because the rules he loves specify that.

I’m much more willing to vary from the original rules in order to make the game better (from my point of view, of course), so my thieves/rogues have d6s, can use bows (Robin Hood), and vary in other ways from the original rules. My 1e clerics can choose one of three types of sharp weapons (two-handers, one-handed swords, bow and arrow) and use those weapons as well as the blunt ones - because it’s better for the game. They can memorize twice as many spells as they can cast. And so on.

But a GM can make his game Old or New regardless of the actual rules. Some rules make it easier to tell stories (e.g. FATE). Simpler rulesets in general give the GM more freedom to tell stories, as there are fewer rules to get in the way of the story, and likely less “rules lawyering”.
[h=3]GM Role[/h] In terms of the two major conceptions of the GM’s role, the GM as rules arbiter and the GM as a sort of god, which works better for the storytelling that’s part of New School? I think rules arbiter is much less effective, as the rules can get in the way of the story. GM as rules arbiter tends to go with long rulesets (which more likely need an arbiter), and rules-heavy games get in the way of story-telling. Rules-light games ought to be better for GM storytelling. Players who don’t want the GM to control the story may prefer rules-heavy RPGs. These are tendencies, of course, not certainties, and likely there are counterexamples.
[h=3]Pacing[/h] Pacing is a big part of the difference between the two extremes. Good pacing (in novel and film terms) calls for alternating lows and highs, to make the highs that much more effective.

Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail. “Loot drops” are boring when every monster has a loot drop. Boatloads of treasure become boring when you always get boatloads of treasure. “No one ever gets in serious trouble” is boring. In other words, the New abandons good pacing in favor of enabling “no negative consequences” or just “no losses”. You can certainly do that, but it sounds tedious to me.
[h=3]Non-RPGs, too[/h] This Old/New dichotomy can be seen clearly in board and card games as well. Such games have moved away from the traditional direct competition, and from high levels of player interaction, to parallel competitions that are usually puzzles (i.e., have always-correct solutions) rather than games (which do not have such solutions). Each player pursues his own puzzle down one of the "Multiple Paths to Victory," that is, following one of several always-correct solutions provided by the designer.

"As an Action RPG, the best thing about Torchlight II is the way loot, skill choices, and chance bubble over into a fountain of light and treasure at the whiff of a right-click, every single time, for as long as you can keep going." PC Gamer magazine, 2012

We see the difference in video games, too, but for commercial reasons those games have gone far into the New. To begin with, computers lend themselves to avatar-based "experiences" (forms of story) rather than games. Also, computer games of all types are far into reward (or at least, lack of negative consequences), having left consequence (Old School) behind some time ago. In other words, you’re rewarded for playing while not having to worry/take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. (There are exceptions of course.) In the extreme, players will blame the game if they don’t succeed. If you make a free to play video game (a very common type now), practically speaking you MUST make it easy and positive so that players will stick around long enough to decide to provide you with some revenue via in-game micro-transactions.

(Editor's Note: We decided to add in Lew's third article, below, so it puts all of his points in context; please see my comment below).

Here are some Old/New School differences in actual gameplay.
[h=3]Strategy Over Tactics[/h] Military strategy (what you do before battle is joined) is de-emphasized in opposite-of-old-school games. Why?

  • Good strategy requires planning; tactics can become standardized, rule of thumb, easier
  • If the GM is telling a story, he or she wants players to follow the script, not devise their own ways of doing things overall (which is what strategy is all about)
Tactical games, on the other hand, are all about immediate fighting, what 4th edition D&D was built for, what many computer RPGs are built for because computers are at their best in tactics and worst in strategy.
[h=3]Hand-Holding[/h] Old School games are often about exploration, about finding/identifying the objectives. And recognizing when something about a location/opponent makes it too dangerous to take on right now.

Something like a secret door becomes a “dirty GM trick” instead of a challenge for the dungeon-delving skills of the party. “New” games are about being guided by the game (GM) to where the fight is, then fighting, then getting the loot. (You recognize the description of typical computer RPGs, especially MMO RPGs?)

In other words, the GM “holds the hands” of the players, guiding them rather than leaving them to their own devices. Every GM does this on occasion, but it’s the norm in the extreme of New School.
[h=3]What’s Important in Play?[/h] In Old School, it’s the success of the party that counts, much more than the success of the individual. This is a “wartime” attitude now quite uncommon in the USA, but common amongst the Baby Boomer wargamers who originated RPGs. In the extremes of the newer school, it’s the individual that counts (e.g. as expressed in “All About Me” RPGs), not the group. This makes a huge difference in how people play the game.
[h=3]Sport or War?[/h] I talked about this in an earlier column (RPG Combat: Sport or War?). To summarize, in war everything is fair, and stratagems – “a plan or scheme, especially one used to outwit an opponent” - are the ideal. If you get in a fair fight, you’ve screwed up: fair fights are for suckers. That style puts a premium on intelligence-gathering and on strategy. Combat as sport looks for a fair fight that the players will just barely manage to win, often as managed by the GM. Combat as War is less heroic, but it’s a lot more practical from the adventurer’s point of view. And for me, a lot more believable. If a fight is truly fair, you’re going to lose 50% of the time, in the long run. That’s not survivable.
[h=3]Nuance[/h] There are lots of “in-betweens”, of course:

  • What about a campaign where the party can suffer a total or near wipeout, but someone has left a wish with a reliable soul who can wish away the disaster. They can fail (lose), but most or all of them will survive.
  • What about the “All About Me” style I wrote about recently? Usually, there is no possibility of failure, but a GM could put a little failure into the equation if they wished.
  • What about the campaign where everyone knows their character is doomed to die, likely before reaching (in AD&D terms) 10th or 11th level? Then glory (and a glorious death) often becomes the objective.
  • What about the campaign where characters normally survive, but when someone does something egregiously stupid or foolish, the character can die?
  • You can hand-hold players to the point of combat, and still make that combat deadly.
RPGs can accommodate all kinds of tastes. But we don’t have to like every kind, do we?

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

GreyLord

Legend
There are three loud groups in the hobby, which contribute almost nothing to rpg conversations. There is the pretentious "serious" roleplayer group which dismisses D&D as a board game for murder hoboes, the "hardcore" tactical group which dismisses "serious" roleplayers as fluffy wannabe drama students, and the "old schoolers" who lament the hobby being taken over by the "young folk" who don't like challenges and want everything handed over for free. It's fine to have strong opinions, to be passionate, but not to be an obnoxious and/or pretentious know-it-all, who can't even be bothered to understand their whole hobby, beyond their favoured niche.

What!?

I consider myself an old schooler and I do not feel the young folk are like that at all.

I think some of them may have had serious problems with elementary school math (with some of the complaints they level about older styles way of involving math within them), or that they like to focus on other things than the older types of games did (for example, well level limits worked well with the focus of the TSR days, few today want them, much less even appreciate such things), or that they like quicker moving games at times (level per session)....

BUT...to tell the truth...there are gamers that have ALWAYS had these things that they did not like, even with older gamers.

IF we had to define what was originally OLD SCHOOL vs. what is New School I'd put it purely around those who wanted D&D to be more like the TSR days with D&D vs. those who wanted games that WotC came out with in 3e/D20 and beyond. Originally, it was THAT simple.

There was none of this...Old school is more free form and rough and tough or such things...originally it was blatantly obvious. It was born from those who enjoyed OD&D, AD&D, and AD&D 2e (to a lesser extent) and did not see a reason to change the core systems that had been around at that point for 25 years.

These days the entire OSR idea has been hijacked by those propping their own opinions and hi falutin egos on their blogs and websites as being the official ones to define such things and say it has to do with more free form play and other such nonsense...but such type of play can be done with ANY edition (and I've done so, even with 4e). It may be an Old School DM thing to have more homeschool rules and free and loose with play, but it's not something EXCLUSIVE to ANY edition.

The rules of the game original though seriously just boiled down to early D&D prior to 2000 to Post-2000 D&D. Simple, easy, and very clear to understand to those who were Old School.

Later it sort of extended to any game style that came about prior to 2000, and especially those prior to 1990...and I think most were okay with it...

but this NEW SCHOOL idea of what OLD SCHOOL was and is...actually excludes a majority of those who are actually the OLD SCHOOL gamers...which I find highly ironic.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
What!?

I consider myself an old schooler and I do not feel the young folk are like that at all.

I think some of them may have had serious problems with elementary school math (with some of the complaints they level about older styles way of involving math within them), or that they like to focus on other things than the older types of games did (for example, well level limits worked well with the focus of the TSR days, few today want them, much less even appreciate such things), or that they like quicker moving games at times (level per session)....

BUT...to tell the truth...there are gamers that have ALWAYS had these things that they did not like, even with older gamers.

IF we had to define what was originally OLD SCHOOL vs. what is New School I'd put it purely around those who wanted D&D to be more like the TSR days with D&D vs. those who wanted games that WotC came out with in 3e/D20 and beyond. Originally, it was THAT simple.

There was none of this...Old school is more free form and rough and tough or such things...originally it was blatantly obvious. It was born from those who enjoyed OD&D, AD&D, and AD&D 2e (to a lesser extent) and did not see a reason to change the core systems that had been around at that point for 25 years.

These days the entire OSR idea has been hijacked by those propping their own opinions and hi falutin egos on their blogs and websites as being the official ones to define such things and say it has to do with more free form play and other such nonsense...but such type of play can be done with ANY edition (and I've done so, even with 4e). It may be an Old School DM thing to have more homeschool rules and free and loose with play, but it's not something EXCLUSIVE to ANY edition.

The rules of the game original though seriously just boiled down to early D&D prior to 2000 to Post-2000 D&D. Simple, easy, and very clear to understand to those who were Old School.

Later it sort of extended to any game style that came about prior to 2000, and especially those prior to 1990...and I think most were okay with it...

but this NEW SCHOOL idea of what OLD SCHOOL was and is...actually excludes a majority of those who are actually the OLD SCHOOL gamers...which I find highly ironic.
You must have missed the article previously linked in this thread where the TSR days were considered lamentable new school playing. ;)

Again, defining OS by system/time is a poor start. Play goals are a better start, and I think even there ut won't break evenly into NS vs OS.
 

Hussar

Legend
I'm still rather baffled how the idea of "GM Story" is being trotted out here for story based games.

Sorry, that's a complete mischaracterization of story heavy games. They are not about the GM's Story. In fact, if you're playing FATE (for example) and you're the GM and it's all about your story, you are playing the game wrong.

These articles would be a lot better received if [MENTION=30518]lewpuls[/MENTION] actually would take the time to learn about story based games before criticizing them.
 

Arilyn

Hero
What!?

I consider myself an old schooler and I do not feel the young folk are like that at all.

I think some of them may have had serious problems with elementary school math (with some of the complaints they level about older styles way of involving math within them), or that they like to focus on other things than the older types of games did (for example, well level limits worked well with the focus of the TSR days, few today want them, much less even appreciate such things), or that they like quicker moving games at times (level per session)....

BUT...to tell the truth...there are gamers that have ALWAYS had these things that they did not like, even with older gamers.

IF we had to define what was originally OLD SCHOOL vs. what is New School I'd put it purely around those who wanted D&D to be more like the TSR days with D&D vs. those who wanted games that WotC came out with in 3e/D20 and beyond. Originally, it was THAT simple.

There was none of this...Old school is more free form and rough and tough or such things...originally it was blatantly obvious. It was born from those who enjoyed OD&D, AD&D, and AD&D 2e (to a lesser extent) and did not see a reason to change the core systems that had been around at that point for 25 years.

These days the entire OSR idea has been hijacked by those propping their own opinions and hi falutin egos on their blogs and websites as being the official ones to define such things and say it has to do with more free form play and other such nonsense...but such type of play can be done with ANY edition (and I've done so, even with 4e). It may be an Old School DM thing to have more homeschool rules and free and loose with play, but it's not something EXCLUSIVE to ANY edition.

The rules of the game original though seriously just boiled down to early D&D prior to 2000 to Post-2000 D&D. Simple, easy, and very clear to understand to those who were Old School.

Later it sort of extended to any game style that came about prior to 2000, and especially those prior to 1990...and I think most were okay with it...

but this NEW SCHOOL idea of what OLD SCHOOL was and is...actually excludes a majority of those who are actually the OLD SCHOOL gamers...which I find highly ironic.

Oh dear, you missed my point. The loud voices I was talking about were the intolerant extremists, not characteristic of all or even the majority. I love lots of role playing but don't snub my nose at D&D fans. You know, the my way is the one true way types, that don't argue based on facts, and don't even try to understand other ways of play.
 

Hussar

Legend
My two cents is this is a gaming forum. I don't expect rhetorical perfection in every article. I expect a spectrum. Some articles will essentially be leaning more on the opinion side than others, and expressing views that have weaknesses in them. I don't particularly see a problem with that if the discussion is good. And the discussion is as good or bad as we make it IMO. Frankly, I think if you skip past the more extreme posts, there are people in the thread on both sides of the aisle making interesting points.

"Both sides"? Other than a couple of lone voices in the wilderness, who's arguing here? You have two solid pages of people condemning this article for being facile, poorly researched and factually wrong before anyone steps up and says anything positive about it. And, even then, it's more damning with faint praise than anything.

Expecting higher caliber writing is not expecting rhetorical perfection. And, if this was an outlier article, that might be another thing as well. But it's not. [MENTION=30518]lewpuls[/MENTION] has been hammering this same drum over and over and over again, using the same language and the same examples, for a while now. And he gets called on it every single time.

See, funny thing is, when [MENTION=30518]lewpuls[/MENTION] started these articles, he actually would engage in the comments from time to time. Now? It's drop the burning bag on the front doorstep, ring the bell and run away. These have become nothing but clickbait.
 

I'm still rather baffled how the idea of "GM Story" is being trotted out here for story based games.

Sorry, that's a complete mischaracterization of story heavy games. They are not about the GM's Story. In fact, if you're playing FATE (for example) and you're the GM and it's all about your story, you are playing the game wrong.

These articles would be a lot better received if [MENTION=30518]lewpuls[/MENTION] actually would take the time to learn about story based games before criticizing them.

I agree that there is often a mischaracterization of story game play in these discussion. I was honestly a little unclear on what Lewpuls meant by the term story. My experience in the OSR is story denotes narrative style play. But my experience with old school gamers is they often use story just to mean 'the stuff that happens in the game'. The way he was using it seemed more in line with 90s storyteller style play.
 

Hussar

Legend
I agree that there is often a mischaracterization of story game play in these discussion. I was honestly a little unclear on what Lewpuls meant by the term story. My experience in the OSR is story denotes narrative style play. But my experience with old school gamers is they often use story just to mean 'the stuff that happens in the game'. The way he was using it seemed more in line with 90s storyteller style play.

Thus [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION], the criticism that the article is not very well written. It's unclear and vague. Even the basic premises of the articles aren't clearly defined which means that the articles mean pretty much whatever the reader wants them to mean.

When you have a very tight word count - I believe the articles are limited to 500 words - then precision in writing is an absolute must.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
IF we had to define what was originally OLD SCHOOL vs. what is New School I'd put it purely around those who wanted D&D to be more like the TSR days with D&D vs. those who wanted games that WotC came out with in 3e/D20 and beyond. Originally, it was THAT simple.

The rules of the game original though seriously just boiled down to early D&D prior to 2000 to Post-2000 D&D. Simple, easy, and very clear to understand to those who were Old School.

Later it sort of extended to any game style that came about prior to 2000, and especially those prior to 1990...and I think most were okay with it...

Maybe you missed some of the stuff that was coming out at the end of 2e? Between the Skills and Powers and Combat and Tactics expansions 3e is not such a big step from 2e as you may imagine.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
Using various D&D editons as an example:

The peaks - those moments where things go well in the fiction, the rules system is working like it should, and everyone's having fun are approximately of equal "height" in all editions.

It's the valleys where the differences lie, both in "depth" and in frequency and-or duration. First off, to get it out of the way, I'll say that opportunities for negative story-based outcomes have always been there, but as such things are not all that quantifyable they don't help with a comparison, which this is.

In older D&D there were many different types of "valleys", everything from stretches of party frustration (can't find the next step) to individual PCs being on the wrong end of a save-or-suck/die to losing levels or valuable gear, to whatever. Character death was but one type of valley. And in all cases sometimes those valleys went on for a while - it might take a session or two before the way forward is found, or a save-or-suck might put someone out of action for half the night, or it might take a long time to recover the lost level or gear, etc.

Newer D&D has done a lot at the system design level to mitigate the depth, frequency, and duration of those valleys. Fail-forward (4e). Save-or-die virtually gone. Save-or-suck durations greatly reduced. Level loss is gone. Magic items almost never have to save vs destruction. It's more difficult for a PC to die (compare 5e's series of death saves with 0e-1e's drop dead at 0 h.p.). The lasting effects of a death-revival cycle are gone. Etc.

Laudable goal, to reduce those valleys...but it leads to an unexpected result. In older D&D the depth and frequency of the valleys made the peaks very special when they occurred, but with the valleys now less deep and less frequent the peaks - while not having changed in and of themselves very much - seem lesser. I know that's not well put, but I'm having trouble putting words to what I'm thinking - if I had the technical knowhow to show this on a chart it'd make more sense.

So in the end, to support my earlier point, the graph is 'flatter' because the valleys are shallower.

Perhaps there's another way to at least point at the difference: assuming experience with all editions, a player going in to an old-school* D&D game will probably be expecting few peaks and lots of valleys while a player going in to a new school* D&D game will probably be expecting lots of peaks and few valleys.

* - by feel; though the editions tend to push in certain directions any of 'em can be made to play in either mode with a bit of work.

I think that you make some valid distinctions among different editions of D&D. I just don’t think that they have much to do with pacing.

Pacing is a variable thing. Different games have different methods of pacing, or different mechanics that help determine pacing. And of course the DM and players are always involved in a game’s pacing.

But your peaks and valleys point is more about high points of action and low points of action. And although this may seem to relate to pacing, I don’t think the point you’re making really does.

Your contrasting the low points with the high, saying that the contrast itself lends the peaks more meaning. But despite understanding why you might say that, I don’t know how relevant it is. The high points of my game are just as enjoyable. They don’t lose anything by having fewer boring stretches.

If anything, making the lulls more bearable just means that, arguably, the game is overall more enjoyable.

I'd disagree that the play experience is all that similar, if only due to a) the typical 5e character having so many more mechanical options at its disposal which the player then has to be aware of and in some cases keep track of and b) the massively-faster rest and recovery rates of 5e characters (and their foes) vs 1e characters takes slow day-by-day attrition off the table in favour of all-or-nothing approaches.

Each edition plays a bit different, and each has its pros and cons. But with the possible exception of 4E, the play experience is relatively the same. They’re all still D&D, after all.

Now, I know that may seem crazy to you, but play a game of Blades in the Dark or Tales From the Loop and then you’ll see how different a game can be.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that in older D&D there was no real baked-in concept of wealth-by-level or treasure parcels to be carefully measured and doled out. It was, or at least from both the player and DM sides very much seemed to be, much more random; with only the vaguest of guidelines suggesting not to go all Monty Haul on things while making sure the party had (for example) magic weapons available by the time they started facing foes that required magic to hit.

Sure there were 'treasure types' listed for each monster but IME those were largely ignored in favour of "what sort of stuff might this monster have reasonably accumulated, given where and what it is?", without much regard for whether it's a 2nd-level of 10th-level party finding it.

If you look at the treasure types, you’ll see they were exactly what you describe. And you say that 1E had expectations about what manner of gear was appropriate for a level. I don’t think that taking those assumptions and then having a later edition put them in a chart meant as a reference is much of a point.

Treasure is important to every edition of D&D. If anything, I’d say it’s more important in older editions as the vast amount of character improvement was through gear.

Hey, though I've never used xp for gp I can certainly see how it pushes the exploration side over the combat side. :)

Well that’s how one Old School edition worked. You played by different rules or you homebrewed your own...I can’t comment on that.
 

Thus [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION], the criticism that the article is not very well written. It's unclear and vague. Even the basic premises of the articles aren't clearly defined which means that the articles mean pretty much whatever the reader wants them to mean.

When you have a very tight word count - I believe the articles are limited to 500 words - then precision in writing is an absolute must.

I think I've already exhausted my end of this discussion in terms of its quality and value for the forum. I made my points already as to why I thought this sort of article was useful.
 

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