Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 and 3 Rules, Pacing, Non-RPGs, and G

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.


“Old School Games have a lot of failure, more mediocre outcomes... and the brilliant stroke that suddenly feels astonishing because there is something there to contrast it with. New School Games are grey goo.” Jeffro

Last time I talked about some differences between “Old School” and newer approaches to RPGs, especially related to story. Here are some more.
[h=3]Rules[/h] The difference in “schools” is not about rules. Rules are not sacred, nor do they fit for every person. I think about rules in terms of game design. Occasionally choices designers make in games are arbitrary, one is as good as another. Some of these choices, the game designer(s) might want to change after publication, if they could. And over time, a game designer might make different choices for rules simply because tastes/trends change. For these reasons it makes no sense, to me, to adhere strictly to every rule in an RPG set.

Jeffro Johnson goes back to rules before AD&D (first edition as we tend to call it), or rules intended to substitute, such as Moldvay-B/X-Basic rules. So Jeffro says thieves must have d4 for hit points, because the rules he loves specify that.

I’m much more willing to vary from the original rules in order to make the game better (from my point of view, of course), so my thieves/rogues have d6s, can use bows (Robin Hood), and vary in other ways from the original rules. My 1e clerics can choose one of three types of sharp weapons (two-handers, one-handed swords, bow and arrow) and use those weapons as well as the blunt ones - because it’s better for the game. They can memorize twice as many spells as they can cast. And so on.

But a GM can make his game Old or New regardless of the actual rules. Some rules make it easier to tell stories (e.g. FATE). Simpler rulesets in general give the GM more freedom to tell stories, as there are fewer rules to get in the way of the story, and likely less “rules lawyering”.
[h=3]GM Role[/h] In terms of the two major conceptions of the GM’s role, the GM as rules arbiter and the GM as a sort of god, which works better for the storytelling that’s part of New School? I think rules arbiter is much less effective, as the rules can get in the way of the story. GM as rules arbiter tends to go with long rulesets (which more likely need an arbiter), and rules-heavy games get in the way of story-telling. Rules-light games ought to be better for GM storytelling. Players who don’t want the GM to control the story may prefer rules-heavy RPGs. These are tendencies, of course, not certainties, and likely there are counterexamples.
[h=3]Pacing[/h] Pacing is a big part of the difference between the two extremes. Good pacing (in novel and film terms) calls for alternating lows and highs, to make the highs that much more effective.

Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail. “Loot drops” are boring when every monster has a loot drop. Boatloads of treasure become boring when you always get boatloads of treasure. “No one ever gets in serious trouble” is boring. In other words, the New abandons good pacing in favor of enabling “no negative consequences” or just “no losses”. You can certainly do that, but it sounds tedious to me.
[h=3]Non-RPGs, too[/h] This Old/New dichotomy can be seen clearly in board and card games as well. Such games have moved away from the traditional direct competition, and from high levels of player interaction, to parallel competitions that are usually puzzles (i.e., have always-correct solutions) rather than games (which do not have such solutions). Each player pursues his own puzzle down one of the "Multiple Paths to Victory," that is, following one of several always-correct solutions provided by the designer.

"As an Action RPG, the best thing about Torchlight II is the way loot, skill choices, and chance bubble over into a fountain of light and treasure at the whiff of a right-click, every single time, for as long as you can keep going." PC Gamer magazine, 2012

We see the difference in video games, too, but for commercial reasons those games have gone far into the New. To begin with, computers lend themselves to avatar-based "experiences" (forms of story) rather than games. Also, computer games of all types are far into reward (or at least, lack of negative consequences), having left consequence (Old School) behind some time ago. In other words, you’re rewarded for playing while not having to worry/take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. (There are exceptions of course.) In the extreme, players will blame the game if they don’t succeed. If you make a free to play video game (a very common type now), practically speaking you MUST make it easy and positive so that players will stick around long enough to decide to provide you with some revenue via in-game micro-transactions.

(Editor's Note: We decided to add in Lew's third article, below, so it puts all of his points in context; please see my comment below).

Here are some Old/New School differences in actual gameplay.
[h=3]Strategy Over Tactics[/h] Military strategy (what you do before battle is joined) is de-emphasized in opposite-of-old-school games. Why?

  • Good strategy requires planning; tactics can become standardized, rule of thumb, easier
  • If the GM is telling a story, he or she wants players to follow the script, not devise their own ways of doing things overall (which is what strategy is all about)
Tactical games, on the other hand, are all about immediate fighting, what 4th edition D&D was built for, what many computer RPGs are built for because computers are at their best in tactics and worst in strategy.
[h=3]Hand-Holding[/h] Old School games are often about exploration, about finding/identifying the objectives. And recognizing when something about a location/opponent makes it too dangerous to take on right now.

Something like a secret door becomes a “dirty GM trick” instead of a challenge for the dungeon-delving skills of the party. “New” games are about being guided by the game (GM) to where the fight is, then fighting, then getting the loot. (You recognize the description of typical computer RPGs, especially MMO RPGs?)

In other words, the GM “holds the hands” of the players, guiding them rather than leaving them to their own devices. Every GM does this on occasion, but it’s the norm in the extreme of New School.
[h=3]What’s Important in Play?[/h] In Old School, it’s the success of the party that counts, much more than the success of the individual. This is a “wartime” attitude now quite uncommon in the USA, but common amongst the Baby Boomer wargamers who originated RPGs. In the extremes of the newer school, it’s the individual that counts (e.g. as expressed in “All About Me” RPGs), not the group. This makes a huge difference in how people play the game.
[h=3]Sport or War?[/h] I talked about this in an earlier column (RPG Combat: Sport or War?). To summarize, in war everything is fair, and stratagems – “a plan or scheme, especially one used to outwit an opponent” - are the ideal. If you get in a fair fight, you’ve screwed up: fair fights are for suckers. That style puts a premium on intelligence-gathering and on strategy. Combat as sport looks for a fair fight that the players will just barely manage to win, often as managed by the GM. Combat as War is less heroic, but it’s a lot more practical from the adventurer’s point of view. And for me, a lot more believable. If a fight is truly fair, you’re going to lose 50% of the time, in the long run. That’s not survivable.
[h=3]Nuance[/h] There are lots of “in-betweens”, of course:

  • What about a campaign where the party can suffer a total or near wipeout, but someone has left a wish with a reliable soul who can wish away the disaster. They can fail (lose), but most or all of them will survive.
  • What about the “All About Me” style I wrote about recently? Usually, there is no possibility of failure, but a GM could put a little failure into the equation if they wished.
  • What about the campaign where everyone knows their character is doomed to die, likely before reaching (in AD&D terms) 10th or 11th level? Then glory (and a glorious death) often becomes the objective.
  • What about the campaign where characters normally survive, but when someone does something egregiously stupid or foolish, the character can die?
  • You can hand-hold players to the point of combat, and still make that combat deadly.
RPGs can accommodate all kinds of tastes. But we don’t have to like every kind, do we?

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio
By perfectly good you mean obviously ignorant on half of the topic discussed and having an insulting and dismissive tone?

Isn't this post itself also dismissive? Obviously this isn't what I meant by quality. What I meant was I got a real person's opinion in the article, rather than something that was written to please everyone. I don't have to agree with everything in an article, or feel everything in it is correct, to enjoy it. It had a strong point of view and that point of view started a conversation. If it was insincere, and done just to provoke, I would have been less interested. I didn't get the impression it was written that way though. Just seemed like his honest take.

If you want to correct something in the article, I think that would be a great contribution. More information is always good. But again, a lot of it is opinion and perception. I get people reacting strongly. On the other hand, people say negative things about old school play all the time. Personally, I don't think there needs to be a big divide between more new school and old school approaches, I don't see them as mutually exclusive. But I can understand how online conflict around play styles leads to dismissive tones now and then. And if that is how someone honestly feels, I'd rather they say it, than not (so I at least know where they are really coming from).
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Or there may be other consequences, but those are rolled for or otherwise determined separately.

You fail the climb and you fall. Now either you (player) or I (DM) can roll to see how much noise you made, and based partly on that I'll then roll to see if anyone noticed your attempt.

Sometimes yes, sometimes at different odds for any of a host of reasons, and sometimes (but not often) no. Situationally dependent.

Where to me this should be two separate things. Did you make the climb? Yes? OK, you've been stealthy so it's very unlikely anyone's noticed you, but let me check anyway. No? OK, let's see if anyone noticed that - but first roll to see how noisy your fall was. (I also like to have a player roll [any die will do] to determine how far the PC had got before s/he fell - the higher you roll, the higher you got - as this plays into potential damage taken and noise made)

Depends. If you were noticed, e.g. someone heard you fall, then maybe your goal is hosed. Otherwise...

...this becomes the case, which is fine.

Maybe this is pointing at yet another fuzzy-but-discernable difference between OS and NS play: level of granularity.
You managed to fisk my post without successfully debating the central point (it was about pacing). I'll not engage the gish gallop here since it doesn't engage that point but just throws up a lot of chaff at the details.

As an example of this, you spend a bit of time arguing that the overall goal may still be threatened by the DM asking for more atomic (definition below) action checks while ignoring how that reinforces my point about pacing (and how pacing isn't failure/success). Not to mention that in OS gaming, the actual overall goal is not often discussed; players declare atomic actions in series that are resolved one by one instead of larger goal/approach declarations because that's how OS mechanics are organized: at the atomic action level. Because of this, an action declaration can be adjudicated to cause the goal to become unobtainable without ever being declared, leading to blocking rather than moving the fiction. The game grinds because the players now have to figure out a new chain of actions, resolved atomically, and the fiction pauses while they do so. Contrasted with NS play tgat aims to resolve the goal rather than the atomic actions, for good or bad, thus continuing to keep the fiction moving and the gas oedal of pacing on the floor. Because pacing is about time, not success/failure -- a failure can still keep the pressure and pace up.

This isn't to say the OS gaming is worse or NS is better. NS gets this pacing bump at a cost: it often applies meta mechanics to give more control to players over success/fail because the pacing engine is revved higher. It also loses the process sim feel, which can be something enjoyable. There are tradeoffs in systems to achieve play goals. To me, this is the biggest missing part of these discussions: not what belongs to which style or which style does this thing better, but what do players want out of play and how does a given game/style give it?

*Here atomic actions means action declarations are presented as small chunks of discreete interaction and resolved independently. Frex, to climb a wall, you'll make multiple climb checks based on distance climbed. If you wanted to climb the example wall but quietly to boot, you'd have a seperate check for stealth because that's "atomically" different from climbing.
 

Aldarc

Legend
What about when there's only interesting consequences for one of success or failure but not both? Example: searching a room for something specific. Interesting consequences if you find it, but not really if you don't.
Then why is the challenge being constructed this way?

First, it concatenates what should potentially be two (or more) discrete rolls and-or decisions into one.
(1) This seems like a feature and not a bug. (2) Nothing precludes you from running it as "two (or more) discrete rolls" in Fate. The GM has a tremendous amount of latitude here.

There are two different things at stake here:
Or just one: "can I climb over the wall with the gold?" Or maybe five: Can the PC reach the top? Can the PC climb quick enough? Can the PC climb without being detected? Can the PC keep the gold in the process? Can the PC keep their shoes? You end up making an arbitrary amount of rolls based upon what you think is transpiring in the fiction. And if one roll can accomplish the same result as many while adding clear stakes, then why not streamline things a bit? But as a GM you may want, if not demand, discrete rolls from the player to put on pants, make coffee, feed the cat, lay out bowl, pour cereal, pour milk, check to eat said cereal, clean dishes, and then find the car keys. But other GMs may simply want a single roll for "getting ready in the morning" or opt for no roll at all.

I'd do it that there'd be a roll for the climb part and also a roll for the holding-on-to-the-gold part, and should things go wrong the player/PC would be given a choice along the lines of a) drop the gold and keep climbing, b) keep the gold and fall, or c) spill a random amount of the gold and try the roll again. I'd also point out that all of these options carry a risk of making some noteworthy noise.
Why should the player have a choice if ":):):):) happens" and they lose the gold through their own bungled climbing as per (a) or (c)? Doesn't that break the simulationism of chance? You don't get a choice if you lose gold, you just do? :confused:

Second, it takes away all the other options or choices for what happens should things go wrong because the consequence of failure is now locked in as "you drop the gold". Falling is taken off the table, as is spilling some of the gold, as is the noise factor, and so forth. And no matter what happens the PC's personal escape is also locked in - the PC, on failing the roll, cannot decide to risk staying put with the gold and trying to find another way out, for example, as that decision has been taken out of her hands.
Why is it necessarily bad that falling has been taken off the table when the fiction establishes that the character would not have necessarily needed to roll for climbing the wall to begin with under other circumstances? You clearly want falling to be perpetually on the table. That's fine. But that is not the problem that you imagine it to be. That is a matter of preference.

But I would also note that the noise factor was never under consideration in the original scenario, though it can be easily added: Overcome Stealth check or Create an Advantage with Stealth.* Furthermore, spilling some of the gold was already baked into the dice resolution system of Fate: ties. If you roll the same as your opposition, then you tie. This results in either you getting what you want with a minor cost or you getting a lesser version. It seems like spilling some of the gold doesn't so much fall into that category as much it folds and lays itself gently into that category.

* The Book of Hanz, a compilation of essays written by Hanz about Fate, has a good example of multiple rolls for emulating the fiction of the scene.
Here's an example: Let's say that our spy hero needs to get past a door, guarded by a couple of mooks in a movie. We see him slip into the shadows where the mooks can't see him. He then climbs into the pipes above the guards, and once above them drops down, taking them both out with his weight. He hauls the guards off behind some boxes and proceeds…

Okay, so in a more traditional RPG, this would be a stealth roll, probably some more notice checks, probably a roll to get up on the pipes, and then an attack roll with some bonuses.

Now, sure, you could do something similar with Fate, after all it does have elements like skill rolls and whatnot. But, really, it's better to map actions to periods of "camera time", just like in the movie. So in the first shot of the scene, we see our spy slip into the shadows… That's a Create Advantage roll, opposed by the mooks' Notice.

Then, our hero climbs up on the pipes. Again, this is Create Advantage, but against a static difficulty this time (the danger of failing is more from the inherent danger, and less from being noticed - we've already established that our character is out of view.)

With these aspects now in place (the scene is now ABOUT our hero being "In the Shadows" and "On the Pipes Above the Door"), and our free tags on them, it's a pretty easy Fighting roll to do enough stress to knock out the two mooks.
What perhaps is not clear from reading this is that when the spy then makes the Fighting roll, they can invoke both "In the Shadows" and "On the Pipes Above the Door" for each a +2 bonus to their Fighting roll. If you "hit," then damage is the difference in result.

I think the word 'forward' is getting in the way here. My original post probably should have said the narrative only wants to move in the direction it's already going - in other words, going with the momentum of the story - and that fail-forward consequences (using the "Yes" or "Yes, but..." model) will rarely if ever deflect or turn the momentum in a different direction. A flat-no fail, on the other hand, either forces the momentum to change direction or stops it outright, forcing the players/PCs (not the DM!) to either find a new direction or to find a way to push it in the direction it was already going.
I think there is a lot getting in the way here. For starters, I'm unsure what you mean by a "Yes" or "Yes, but..." model. Secondly, as a principle fail forward is neutral about direction.

Take off the "despite failure" at the end there and those say exactly the same except the words are in a different order.
So if I ignore key words in my latter and then rearrange the words then they mean the same thing? :confused: It seems as if word choice and order are important for constructing meaning. So looking at that instead of trying to edit my words into what you want them to say seems more appropriate, no?

I thought the article was perfectly good quality.
By what reasonable metric? This article would scarcely pass as a sixth grade writing assignment.
 
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By what reasonable metric? This article would scarcely pass as a sixth grade writing assignment.

I explained above why I liked the article. And I explained previously why I thought it was refreshing to have articles that don't all sound like they came from the same style guide and writer's workshop (or online writer's community). Personally I am bored with so much online writing sounding the same. There have been articles posted in the past that cleave more to 'good writing' that bored me to tears because they didn't really say anything, or they just had a very vanilla point of view. This article said something. The topics in the article interested me, the writer had a strong opinion which came through, and got me thinking about the topic. Also he has effectively created a discussion that is spanning two threads. Doesn't mean everything the writer said was right or perfectly expressed. I think it is very easy to attack a writer putting out their opinion on a platform like this. I give him credit for doing so. And I think it would be more meaningful to engage the specific elements you dislike and explain why, rather than just call the article terrible. If you didn't like it, I am not expecting you to agree with me that it was quality. But that is my honest opinion. Are there things I would disagree with in the article? Absolutely. I've tried to lay those out in previous posts. However, even in those instances where I disagree, I think they are good starting points for talking about how new school and old school approach things differently (even if we end up somewhere very different from where the writer started).
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I explained above why I liked the article. And I explained previously why I thought it was refreshing to have articles that don't all sound like they came from the same style guide and writer's workshop (or online writer's community). Personally I am bored with so much online writing sounding the same. There have been articles posted in the past that cleave more to 'good writing' that bored me to tears because they didn't really say anything, or they just had a very vanilla point of view. This article said something. The topics in the article interested me, the writer had a strong opinion which came through, and got me thinking about the topic. Also he has effectively created a discussion that is spanning two threads. Doesn't mean everything the writer said was right or perfectly expressed. I think it is very easy to attack a writer putting out their opinion on a platform like this. I give him credit for doing so. And I think it would be more meaningful to engage the specific elements you dislike and explain why, rather than just call the article terrible. If you didn't like it, I am not expecting you to agree with me that it was quality. But that is my honest opinion. Are there things I would disagree with in the article? Absolutely. I've tried to lay those out in previous posts. However, even in those instances where I disagree, I think they are good starting points for talking about how new school and old school approach things differently (even if we end up somewhere very different from where the writer started).
The arguments against this article are: that it's ignorant of it's subject matter; poorly argued; and insulting. Your focusing on poorly argued and saying that you enjoy different articles and the poor argumentation on this one makes it different, therefore good. That's... at least thematic. But you keep glossing over the other two. That you enjoyed the viewpoint in this articke just shows that you're also unaware of the subject material (else the glaring errors would bother you as well) and have had your biases reinforced. That's not good.
 

The arguments against this article are: that it's ignorant of it's subject matter; poorly argued; and insulting. Your focusing on poorly argued and saying that you enjoy different articles and the poor argumentation on this one makes it different, therefore good. That's... at least thematic. But you keep glossing over the other two. That you enjoyed the viewpoint in this articke just shows that you're also unaware of the subject material (else the glaring errors would bother you as well) and have had your biases reinforced. That's not good.

You are putting words in my mouth, and drawing conclusions that don’t follow.
 

That you enjoyed the viewpoint in this articke just shows that you're also unaware of the subject material (else the glaring errors would bother you as well) and have had your biases reinforced. .

If you want to discuss a specific part of the article you think is an error, I am happy to do so. But perhaps I just don’t get that worked up over mistakes? (Particularly in gaming opinion pieces)

If you knew me, you’d understand that reinforcing my own biases is the last thing I am interested in. I enjoy encountering contrary opinions.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
You are putting words in my mouth, and drawing conclusions that don’t follow.
Okay, fine. Ignore that. Why do you feel tge need to defend the posting of an article that is dismissive of many readers and factually incorrect on the parts it's being dismissive about? So far, I've seen you say you like the articke because it doesn't sound like the usual, and that the argumentation being poor is a matter of taste. So, let's go with those as given: can you address why the article is good and valuable while being ignorant of it's subject and insulting in tone?

Are you even aware of where these articles show ignorance of the subject matter? That's my biggest problem -- many have little or no experience with "new school" RPGs, and reading this article provides outright lies at worst and half-truths at best on the topic. I don't think lewpuls is being malicious, I just think he's ignorant.
 

Okay, fine. Ignore that. Why do you feel tge need to defend the posting of an article that is dismissive of many readers and factually incorrect on the parts it's being dismissive about? So far, I've seen you say you like the articke because it doesn't sound like the usual, and that the argumentation being poor is a matter of taste. So, let's go with those as given: can you address why the article is good and valuable while being ignorant of it's subject and insulting in tone?

Are you even aware of where these articles show ignorance of the subject matter? That's my biggest problem -- many have little or no experience with "new school" RPGs, and reading this article provides outright lies at worst and half-truths at best on the topic. I don't think lewpuls is being malicious, I just think he's ignorant.

I am not going to sit here in inquisition over my enjoyment of the article. I like it, that is all that matters. If you think it sucks, that is up to you. I'm not going to assume things about you, simply because you disliked an article I liked. I like it for reasons I've given and I don't think I have to defend my character for enjoying an article (nor will I do so). And if you do want to attack me personally over it, please do so in a way that accurately reflects what I am saying.

I never said the article captured new school 100% accurately. I said it reflected a real perception of new school. And I have said countless times, I don't think old and new school are mutually exclusive approaches engaged in a zero sum game. If you want to specify where you think the article is incorrect about new school style, I am happy to engage you and tell you if I agree or disagree. But I am not going to just sit here and just be a punching bag for vague declarations of my ignorance or idiocy. So far I haven't seen any specific criticisms from you about the the claims in the article (at least in exchanges with me).

Naturally when talking about something as broad as "new school" and "old school" there is often going to be disagreement over what those two things actually embody. There is room for disagreement and discussion (and there is room for people getting things wrong, then other people stepping in and giving a more complete picture).
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
If you want to discuss a specific part of the article you think is an error, I am happy to do so. But perhaps I just don’t get that worked up over mistakes? (Particularly in gaming opinion pieces)

If you knew me, you’d understand that reinforcing my own biases is the last thing I am interested in. I enjoy encountering contrary opinions.
Mistakes?! If I said that how you play the game is a hidebound power-trip to force players through your railroad adventure while mocking them for not guessing the right wall to search for the win button , and did so in an ENW endorsed article, would you consider that a "mistake?!"

Dear god, you're as ignorant as lewpuls on the topic, and, instead of listening to this entire thread outlining the problems, you've decided to label them "mistakes" and continue being ignorant. I've had good interactions with you on the past, but labeling outright lies that malign other people's play preferences as "mistakes" is bottom of that barrel.
 

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