Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 and 3 Rules, Pacing, Non-RPGs, and G

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.


“Old School Games have a lot of failure, more mediocre outcomes... and the brilliant stroke that suddenly feels astonishing because there is something there to contrast it with. New School Games are grey goo.” Jeffro

Last time I talked about some differences between “Old School” and newer approaches to RPGs, especially related to story. Here are some more.
[h=3]Rules[/h] The difference in “schools” is not about rules. Rules are not sacred, nor do they fit for every person. I think about rules in terms of game design. Occasionally choices designers make in games are arbitrary, one is as good as another. Some of these choices, the game designer(s) might want to change after publication, if they could. And over time, a game designer might make different choices for rules simply because tastes/trends change. For these reasons it makes no sense, to me, to adhere strictly to every rule in an RPG set.

Jeffro Johnson goes back to rules before AD&D (first edition as we tend to call it), or rules intended to substitute, such as Moldvay-B/X-Basic rules. So Jeffro says thieves must have d4 for hit points, because the rules he loves specify that.

I’m much more willing to vary from the original rules in order to make the game better (from my point of view, of course), so my thieves/rogues have d6s, can use bows (Robin Hood), and vary in other ways from the original rules. My 1e clerics can choose one of three types of sharp weapons (two-handers, one-handed swords, bow and arrow) and use those weapons as well as the blunt ones - because it’s better for the game. They can memorize twice as many spells as they can cast. And so on.

But a GM can make his game Old or New regardless of the actual rules. Some rules make it easier to tell stories (e.g. FATE). Simpler rulesets in general give the GM more freedom to tell stories, as there are fewer rules to get in the way of the story, and likely less “rules lawyering”.
[h=3]GM Role[/h] In terms of the two major conceptions of the GM’s role, the GM as rules arbiter and the GM as a sort of god, which works better for the storytelling that’s part of New School? I think rules arbiter is much less effective, as the rules can get in the way of the story. GM as rules arbiter tends to go with long rulesets (which more likely need an arbiter), and rules-heavy games get in the way of story-telling. Rules-light games ought to be better for GM storytelling. Players who don’t want the GM to control the story may prefer rules-heavy RPGs. These are tendencies, of course, not certainties, and likely there are counterexamples.
[h=3]Pacing[/h] Pacing is a big part of the difference between the two extremes. Good pacing (in novel and film terms) calls for alternating lows and highs, to make the highs that much more effective.

Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail. “Loot drops” are boring when every monster has a loot drop. Boatloads of treasure become boring when you always get boatloads of treasure. “No one ever gets in serious trouble” is boring. In other words, the New abandons good pacing in favor of enabling “no negative consequences” or just “no losses”. You can certainly do that, but it sounds tedious to me.
[h=3]Non-RPGs, too[/h] This Old/New dichotomy can be seen clearly in board and card games as well. Such games have moved away from the traditional direct competition, and from high levels of player interaction, to parallel competitions that are usually puzzles (i.e., have always-correct solutions) rather than games (which do not have such solutions). Each player pursues his own puzzle down one of the "Multiple Paths to Victory," that is, following one of several always-correct solutions provided by the designer.

"As an Action RPG, the best thing about Torchlight II is the way loot, skill choices, and chance bubble over into a fountain of light and treasure at the whiff of a right-click, every single time, for as long as you can keep going." PC Gamer magazine, 2012

We see the difference in video games, too, but for commercial reasons those games have gone far into the New. To begin with, computers lend themselves to avatar-based "experiences" (forms of story) rather than games. Also, computer games of all types are far into reward (or at least, lack of negative consequences), having left consequence (Old School) behind some time ago. In other words, you’re rewarded for playing while not having to worry/take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. (There are exceptions of course.) In the extreme, players will blame the game if they don’t succeed. If you make a free to play video game (a very common type now), practically speaking you MUST make it easy and positive so that players will stick around long enough to decide to provide you with some revenue via in-game micro-transactions.

(Editor's Note: We decided to add in Lew's third article, below, so it puts all of his points in context; please see my comment below).

Here are some Old/New School differences in actual gameplay.
[h=3]Strategy Over Tactics[/h] Military strategy (what you do before battle is joined) is de-emphasized in opposite-of-old-school games. Why?

  • Good strategy requires planning; tactics can become standardized, rule of thumb, easier
  • If the GM is telling a story, he or she wants players to follow the script, not devise their own ways of doing things overall (which is what strategy is all about)
Tactical games, on the other hand, are all about immediate fighting, what 4th edition D&D was built for, what many computer RPGs are built for because computers are at their best in tactics and worst in strategy.
[h=3]Hand-Holding[/h] Old School games are often about exploration, about finding/identifying the objectives. And recognizing when something about a location/opponent makes it too dangerous to take on right now.

Something like a secret door becomes a “dirty GM trick” instead of a challenge for the dungeon-delving skills of the party. “New” games are about being guided by the game (GM) to where the fight is, then fighting, then getting the loot. (You recognize the description of typical computer RPGs, especially MMO RPGs?)

In other words, the GM “holds the hands” of the players, guiding them rather than leaving them to their own devices. Every GM does this on occasion, but it’s the norm in the extreme of New School.
[h=3]What’s Important in Play?[/h] In Old School, it’s the success of the party that counts, much more than the success of the individual. This is a “wartime” attitude now quite uncommon in the USA, but common amongst the Baby Boomer wargamers who originated RPGs. In the extremes of the newer school, it’s the individual that counts (e.g. as expressed in “All About Me” RPGs), not the group. This makes a huge difference in how people play the game.
[h=3]Sport or War?[/h] I talked about this in an earlier column (RPG Combat: Sport or War?). To summarize, in war everything is fair, and stratagems – “a plan or scheme, especially one used to outwit an opponent” - are the ideal. If you get in a fair fight, you’ve screwed up: fair fights are for suckers. That style puts a premium on intelligence-gathering and on strategy. Combat as sport looks for a fair fight that the players will just barely manage to win, often as managed by the GM. Combat as War is less heroic, but it’s a lot more practical from the adventurer’s point of view. And for me, a lot more believable. If a fight is truly fair, you’re going to lose 50% of the time, in the long run. That’s not survivable.
[h=3]Nuance[/h] There are lots of “in-betweens”, of course:

  • What about a campaign where the party can suffer a total or near wipeout, but someone has left a wish with a reliable soul who can wish away the disaster. They can fail (lose), but most or all of them will survive.
  • What about the “All About Me” style I wrote about recently? Usually, there is no possibility of failure, but a GM could put a little failure into the equation if they wished.
  • What about the campaign where everyone knows their character is doomed to die, likely before reaching (in AD&D terms) 10th or 11th level? Then glory (and a glorious death) often becomes the objective.
  • What about the campaign where characters normally survive, but when someone does something egregiously stupid or foolish, the character can die?
  • You can hand-hold players to the point of combat, and still make that combat deadly.
RPGs can accommodate all kinds of tastes. But we don’t have to like every kind, do we?

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
What's just as possible, is that we're seeing this:
View attachment 104095

There's another possibility - that subjective experiences of game quality cannot easily be put on a graph. If I have a play experience, and you have a play experience, whose was higher?

We colloquially speak of "highs" and "lows", but that is descriptive, anecdotal. It is not *data*. It is not measured in a way that we could accurately compare two points and say which was higher or lower.

Folks, we still cannot manage to all agree on how good a particular movie was, and you want to start talking about highs and lows and periods of each in games that we don't even have the same presentation of? Think about that for a minute.
 

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Aldarc

Legend
As soon as you say "a player opting..." and thus implying that players have the meta-ability to overturn dice rolls, my hackles go up. Not at you for saying it, of course; more at the idea that I'd ever take a system with that degree of meta-play seriously. So, moving on...
I don't think that players-opting for Success with a Serious Cost is standard in Fate, so you can lower your hackles. I often like to give players the chance to offer "success with a major cost" ideas on a failure, because sometimes they propose more interesting alternatives than what I originally had in mind.

In Fate it's the GM's role to decide the cost of your character's failure, which may include "Success with a Serious Cost." The player, however, may get some say in what cost is appropriate for their character, if it is a "success with a serious cost," though the GM has the final say. Why might the player have any say at all? To make sure that the player and GM are on the same page about the fiction in play for determining consequences for the character. The player and GM may be envisioning the fiction surrounding the character differently. What was the character doing? How were they doing it? How might the character fail? What were the stakes? Would this perhaps failure require the PC concede a conflict? What would the PC sacrifice to succeed?

This is interestingly different to how I've seen fail-forward explained before in here. There it was more success is "Yes" and failure is "Yes, but...". "No, but instead..." wasn't mentioned.
Many prolific proponents of "fail forward" have explained it that way before. I did not pull that phrasing out of a vacuum, but, instead, from my prior discussions on this topic in this forum and likely also elsewhere. And many have conflated the two as well, as I most assuredly have before too, which may have added to your confusion. I have conflated those two before myself until I learned otherwise. I am still learning. Coming to the realization that they are different and sufficiently articulating those differences has been a process requiring a bit of listening and practice.

How does this different explanation contribute to your understanding of differences between the two?

Dungeon World does essentially have all three options in its 2d6 dice resolution:
* 1-6: "No, but instead..."
* 7-9: "Yes, but..."
* 10-12: "Yes."

Fate also has "Success with Style" and Blades in the Dark has "Critical Success" (double sixes) which adds "Yes, and..." to the mix.

Unfortunately, what it ends up with is that the most common consequence in reality is in effect banned or strongly discouraged in the game: "Nothing happens".
These are also the moments where some games would not have you roll at all. Fate recommends calling for rolls only when there are interesting consequences in success and failure. In fact, some recommend that the GM be transparent about the consequences of failure, almost like setting the terms and conditions of the roll for the PC.

Let's take climbing the wall example from earlier. The PC wants to ascend the city wall to make their escape with the gold they stole. The GM may then tell them upfront that the PC knows that they can climb the wall. BUT if they fail - the GM notifies the PC - then they will drop the gold in the process. The roll is not "Can you climb the wall or not?" It becomes about "Will you make it to the top of the wall with the gold you want?" These are the actual stakes for the player character when climbing, and both results will have more interesting consequences than determining the PC's ability to gain elevation or "nothing happens." (And this ignores the possible Tie and Success with Style results.)

Precluding narrative inertia is problematic when one realizes that for many players and DMs the narrative only moves in one general direction - forward - and that the only way to change its direction is to first bring it to a relative stop. (though rarely do any of them likely ever think in through in those terms) Or, when it's apparent that it has stopped, everyone sees it as an opportunity to change direction if such is desired.
You misidentify the "problematic" issue here while placing your thumb on the scales a bit. The problematic element is "that for many players and DMs the narrative only moves in one general direction - forward..." That is the problem. Suggesting that "fail forward" is somehow at fault here is identifying the white blood cells as the problem instead of the disease they fight. ;)

Sure it does, if you don't look any further. Ignore consequences.
"Nothing exists beyond this box. Don't believe me? Come inside with me and unsee the outside world for yourself."

This perhaps points to another issue - and OS-NS difference - entirely: the expectation of continuous action. Very much a NS thing.
There is a difference, despite however subtle it may seem, between "the expectation of continuous action" and the expectation that action continues despite failure.
 

I

Immortal Sun

Guest
There's another possibility - that subjective experiences of game quality cannot easily be put on a graph. If I have a play experience, and you have a play experience, whose was higher?
The graph was meant to be taken as symbolic that games have ups and downs. It was not meant to be taken mathematically. Which is why in my next post to Lanefan, I argued against the inclusion of personal experiences that one game may have higher peaks and valleys or another may have more frequent peaks and more frequent valleys.

But ALL games have ups and downs. Moments where you are enjoying yourself, moments where you aren't. Moments where you succeed, moments where you fail. And even times when the successes are not enjoyable, and the failures are.

But they are still there. Highs and lows.

We colloquially speak of "highs" and "lows", but that is descriptive, anecdotal. It is not *data*. It is not measured in a way that we could accurately compare two points and say which was higher or lower.
Well, that's not entirely accurate. We don't have the data, true. That's not to say that it cannot be measured, and there are MANY metrics by which player enjoyment is measured. If it was impossible to measure if something is "fun" or not, then many of the biggest game companies (expanding this argument momentarily to include all games ever) would not be spending millions of dollars on beta testing, focus groups and experimental features.

Folks, we still cannot manage to all agree on how good a particular movie was, and you want to start talking about highs and lows and periods of each in games that we don't even have the same presentation of? Think about that for a minute.
I think you're misunderstanding my argument.

I'm arguing all games have highs and lows. If you disagree with that premise, you're more than welcome to, but by the sheer fact that a die has a high number and a low number, the games they're used in must likewise have high moments and low moments. Fun moments and un-fun moments. I would most certainly like to see, even an anecdotal argument that games do not have highs and lows.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
The graph was meant to be taken as symbolic that games have ups and downs. It was not meant to be taken mathematically.

Someone started in with "my highs are as high as your highs, but my lows are lower than your lows, so I *notice* my highs more" That's using it analytically, not symbolically.

Do you like chocolate as much as I like vanilla? Moreover, is the *difference* between your likes of chocolate and strawberry greater than the difference in my likes of vanilla and pistachio? And does that mean you *notice* your like of chocolate more than I notice my like of vanilla?

One can note highs and lows, sure. You can, for example, do a demonstrative graph of the dramatic highs and lows of, say Disney's Moana, and note that the moment just after Maui gets smacked by the lava monster is a dramatic low, and we'd probably mostly agree on that.

But is the high point in Moana higher or lower than the high point of Frozen? How do either of those compare to the high point of the Robin Williams Bicentennial Man? Answer this question when the people who are rating Moana have not *seen* Bicentennial Man, and vice versa.

That's the kind of thing that's not going to work well for us.

And yes, lots of money is used to measure how fun things are. And, guess what? Most of the DC cinematic universe has been considered pretty lame, regardless! If measures were accurate and reliable, there'd be no flops. But there are flops in movies and games that don't sell all the time! Those measures, if they work at all, are useful for removing some of the risk of a large investment in development, but they don't tell us whether Avengers: Endgame will be more fun than Avengers: Infinity War in an absolute sense.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
When did pacing become a cycle of winning and losing, or doing well and not doing well?!

Pacing is pacing -- how quickly the game is moving -- not success/fail ratios. Failure can affect pacing only if you have only one correct way forward and so have to stop the game until that correct way is sussed out or pixel bitched. In that sense, yes, OS gaming more often has this problem, not because the system does but because the system focuses on the process-sim of resolving discreet actions rather than resolving goals. IE, if your goal is to get to the top of the wall, OS will have multiple checks of your climbing ability -- it sims the process of climbing the wall. Failure prevents the goal while often doing nothing else or perhaps you fall. You can try again. NS focuses on the goal -- not just that you want to climb the wall but why you want to climb the wall -- and uses mechanics to resolve the goal, not the process. In doing so, failures can thwart the goal while still allowing the fiction to evolve. If, for instance, you wanted to climb the wall to infiltrate a keep undetected, then a failure in NS may have you climb the wall, but you're detected -- the goal is failed, but the game isn't stopped. In OS, the climb check must be made, and it's result is that you don't climb. Your goal is delayed, but not failed by this failure. Instead, you have to either keep at it until you run out of hp/time, or find a different way to achieve your goal. In this example, NS play is much more brutal with failures, as it focuses on the overall goal, not the atomic actions necessary for that goal.
 

5ekyu

Hero
I wouldn't rely on that if I were you.

Morrus has asked that we leave management of the writers to him, personally. If there's a problem with what an author has written, Morrus handles it, and you will likely not see public moderator comment on the matter.

If you do not like the tone of the articles, or a post made by one of the authors, I would suggest you report them, like you would any other post.
Thanks - that is helpful to know.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I don't think that players-opting for Success with a Serious Cost is standard in Fate, so you can lower your hackles. I often like to give players the chance to offer "success with a major cost" ideas on a failure, because sometimes they propose more interesting alternatives than what I originally had in mind.
I usually leave consequences (if any other than the obvious) to random roll: did this happen - no? How about this - no? See below for more on what I mean here.

Many prolific proponents of "fail forward" have explained it that way before. I did not pull that phrasing out of a vacuum, but, instead, from my prior discussions on this topic in this forum and likely also elsewhere. And many have conflated the two as well, as I most assuredly have before too, which may have added to your confusion. I have conflated those two before myself until I learned otherwise. I am still learning. Coming to the realization that they are different and sufficiently articulating those differences has been a process requiring a bit of listening and practice.

How does this different explanation contribute to your understanding of differences between the two?
Considerably. Thank you.

These are also the moments where some games would not have you roll at all.
Well, yes, when the outcome is obvious and-or locked-in either way and any roll becomes meaningless.

Fate recommends calling for rolls only when there are interesting consequences in success and failure.
What about when there's only interesting consequences for one of success or failure but not both? Example: searching a room for something specific. Interesting consequences if you find it, but not really if you don't.

In fact, some recommend that the GM be transparent about the consequences of failure, almost like setting the terms and conditions of the roll for the PC.

Let's take climbing the wall example from earlier. The PC wants to ascend the city wall to make their escape with the gold they stole. The GM may then tell them upfront that the PC knows that they can climb the wall. BUT if they fail - the GM notifies the PC - then they will drop the gold in the process. The roll is not "Can you climb the wall or not?" It becomes about "Will you make it to the top of the wall with the gold you want?" These are the actual stakes for the player character when climbing, and both results will have more interesting consequences than determining the PC's ability to gain elevation or "nothing happens."
The problems I see with this are twofold.

First, it concatenates what should potentially be two (or more) discrete rolls and-or decisions into one. There are two different things at stake here: can the PC climb the wall, and can the PC keep the gold in the process (with a third being how quietly this can all be done). I'd do it that there'd be a roll for the climb part and also a roll for the holding-on-to-the-gold part, and should things go wrong the player/PC would be given a choice along the lines of a) drop the gold and keep climbing, b) keep the gold and fall, or c) spill a random amount of the gold and try the roll again. I'd also point out that all of these options carry a risk of making some noteworthy noise.

Second, it takes away all the other options or choices for what happens should things go wrong because the consequence of failure is now locked in as "you drop the gold". Falling is taken off the table, as is spilling some of the gold, as is the noise factor, and so forth. And no matter what happens the PC's personal escape is also locked in - the PC, on failing the roll, cannot decide to risk staying put with the gold and trying to find another way out, for example, as that decision has been taken out of her hands.

You misidentify the "problematic" issue here while placing your thumb on the scales a bit. The problematic element is "that for many players and DMs the narrative only moves in one general direction - forward..." That is the problem. Suggesting that "fail forward" is somehow at fault here is identifying the white blood cells as the problem instead of the disease they fight. ;)
I think the word 'forward' is getting in the way here. My original post probably should have said the narrative only wants to move in the direction it's already going - in other words, going with the momentum of the story - and that fail-forward consequences (using the "Yes" or "Yes, but..." model) will rarely if ever deflect or turn the momentum in a different direction. A flat-no fail, on the other hand, either forces the momentum to change direction or stops it outright, forcing the players/PCs (not the DM!) to either find a new direction or to find a way to push it in the direction it was already going.

There is a difference, despite however subtle it may seem, between "the expectation of continuous action" and the expectation that action continues despite failure.
Take off the "despite failure" at the end there and those say exactly the same except the words are in a different order.

"The expectation that action continues despite [anything]" is, if applied across the game, a straight-up expectation of continuous action...right? :)
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
When did pacing become a cycle of winning and losing, or doing well and not doing well?!

Pacing is pacing -- how quickly the game is moving -- not success/fail ratios. Failure can affect pacing only if you have only one correct way forward and so have to stop the game until that correct way is sussed out or pixel bitched. In that sense, yes, OS gaming more often has this problem, not because the system does but because the system focuses on the process-sim of resolving discreet actions rather than resolving goals. IE, if your goal is to get to the top of the wall, OS will have multiple checks of your climbing ability -- it sims the process of climbing the wall. Failure prevents the goal while often doing nothing else or perhaps you fall.
Or there may be other consequences, but those are rolled for or otherwise determined separately.

You fail the climb and you fall. Now either you (player) or I (DM) can roll to see how much noise you made, and based partly on that I'll then roll to see if anyone noticed your attempt.

You can try again.
Sometimes yes, sometimes at different odds for any of a host of reasons, and sometimes (but not often) no. Situationally dependent.

NS focuses on the goal -- not just that you want to climb the wall but why you want to climb the wall -- and uses mechanics to resolve the goal, not the process. In doing so, failures can thwart the goal while still allowing the fiction to evolve. If, for instance, you wanted to climb the wall to infiltrate a keep undetected, then a failure in NS may have you climb the wall, but you're detected -- the goal is failed, but the game isn't stopped.
Where to me this should be two separate things. Did you make the climb? Yes? OK, you've been stealthy so it's very unlikely anyone's noticed you, but let me check anyway. No? OK, let's see if anyone noticed that - but first roll to see how noisy your fall was. (I also like to have a player roll [any die will do] to determine how far the PC had got before s/he fell - the higher you roll, the higher you got - as this plays into potential damage taken and noise made)

In OS, the climb check must be made, and it's result is that you don't climb. Your goal is delayed, but not failed by this failure.
Depends. If you were noticed, e.g. someone heard you fall, then maybe your goal is hosed. Otherwise...

Instead, you have to either keep at it until you run out of hp/time, or find a different way to achieve your goal.
...this becomes the case, which is fine.

In this example, NS play is much more brutal with failures, as it focuses on the overall goal, not the atomic actions necessary for that goal.
Maybe this is pointing at yet another fuzzy-but-discernable difference between OS and NS play: level of granularity.
 

That's okay. I don't expect perfection, either. I just expect higher minimum standards than this work meets, especially for paid work.

This wasn't just another forum post, it was a featured article. There should be a difference in quality.

I thought the article was perfectly good quality. I do understand that this is a featured article. What I meant though was, on a gaming site, that has featured articles, I expect a range of quality, style and approach to writing. Frankly, it is a bit refreshing, because so much writing online these days sounds exactly the same (in part, I believe because everyone is following the same 'quality' advice). So I like that there are articles written in different voices here. And I like that they feel like they are written by gamers. Some are going to be more perfect in their approach to building an argument than others, some are going to throw out strong opinions that are provocative and invite deeper discussion. I think there can definitely be an issue if writers are simply trolling the forum trying to get a reaction. I don't think that was the case here. I think a sincere gaming point of view was expressed.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I thought the article was perfectly good quality. I do understand that this is a featured article. What I meant though was, on a gaming site, that has featured articles, I expect a range of quality, style and approach to writing. Frankly, it is a bit refreshing, because so much writing online these days sounds exactly the same (in part, I believe because everyone is following the same 'quality' advice). So I like that there are articles written in different voices here. And I like that they feel like they are written by gamers. Some are going to be more perfect in their approach to building an argument than others, some are going to throw out strong opinions that are provocative and invite deeper discussion. I think there can definitely be an issue if writers are simply trolling the forum trying to get a reaction. I don't think that was the case here. I think a sincere gaming point of view was expressed.

By perfectly good you mean obviously ignorant on half of the topic discussed and having an insulting and dismissive tone? One or the other might have bern fine, but thus manager to both get it wrong and be rude about it. That lewpuls was sincere about it makes it worse, not better.
 

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