Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 and 3 Rules, Pacing, Non-RPGs, and G

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.


“Old School Games have a lot of failure, more mediocre outcomes... and the brilliant stroke that suddenly feels astonishing because there is something there to contrast it with. New School Games are grey goo.” Jeffro

Last time I talked about some differences between “Old School” and newer approaches to RPGs, especially related to story. Here are some more.
[h=3]Rules[/h] The difference in “schools” is not about rules. Rules are not sacred, nor do they fit for every person. I think about rules in terms of game design. Occasionally choices designers make in games are arbitrary, one is as good as another. Some of these choices, the game designer(s) might want to change after publication, if they could. And over time, a game designer might make different choices for rules simply because tastes/trends change. For these reasons it makes no sense, to me, to adhere strictly to every rule in an RPG set.

Jeffro Johnson goes back to rules before AD&D (first edition as we tend to call it), or rules intended to substitute, such as Moldvay-B/X-Basic rules. So Jeffro says thieves must have d4 for hit points, because the rules he loves specify that.

I’m much more willing to vary from the original rules in order to make the game better (from my point of view, of course), so my thieves/rogues have d6s, can use bows (Robin Hood), and vary in other ways from the original rules. My 1e clerics can choose one of three types of sharp weapons (two-handers, one-handed swords, bow and arrow) and use those weapons as well as the blunt ones - because it’s better for the game. They can memorize twice as many spells as they can cast. And so on.

But a GM can make his game Old or New regardless of the actual rules. Some rules make it easier to tell stories (e.g. FATE). Simpler rulesets in general give the GM more freedom to tell stories, as there are fewer rules to get in the way of the story, and likely less “rules lawyering”.
[h=3]GM Role[/h] In terms of the two major conceptions of the GM’s role, the GM as rules arbiter and the GM as a sort of god, which works better for the storytelling that’s part of New School? I think rules arbiter is much less effective, as the rules can get in the way of the story. GM as rules arbiter tends to go with long rulesets (which more likely need an arbiter), and rules-heavy games get in the way of story-telling. Rules-light games ought to be better for GM storytelling. Players who don’t want the GM to control the story may prefer rules-heavy RPGs. These are tendencies, of course, not certainties, and likely there are counterexamples.
[h=3]Pacing[/h] Pacing is a big part of the difference between the two extremes. Good pacing (in novel and film terms) calls for alternating lows and highs, to make the highs that much more effective.

Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail. “Loot drops” are boring when every monster has a loot drop. Boatloads of treasure become boring when you always get boatloads of treasure. “No one ever gets in serious trouble” is boring. In other words, the New abandons good pacing in favor of enabling “no negative consequences” or just “no losses”. You can certainly do that, but it sounds tedious to me.
[h=3]Non-RPGs, too[/h] This Old/New dichotomy can be seen clearly in board and card games as well. Such games have moved away from the traditional direct competition, and from high levels of player interaction, to parallel competitions that are usually puzzles (i.e., have always-correct solutions) rather than games (which do not have such solutions). Each player pursues his own puzzle down one of the "Multiple Paths to Victory," that is, following one of several always-correct solutions provided by the designer.

"As an Action RPG, the best thing about Torchlight II is the way loot, skill choices, and chance bubble over into a fountain of light and treasure at the whiff of a right-click, every single time, for as long as you can keep going." PC Gamer magazine, 2012

We see the difference in video games, too, but for commercial reasons those games have gone far into the New. To begin with, computers lend themselves to avatar-based "experiences" (forms of story) rather than games. Also, computer games of all types are far into reward (or at least, lack of negative consequences), having left consequence (Old School) behind some time ago. In other words, you’re rewarded for playing while not having to worry/take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. (There are exceptions of course.) In the extreme, players will blame the game if they don’t succeed. If you make a free to play video game (a very common type now), practically speaking you MUST make it easy and positive so that players will stick around long enough to decide to provide you with some revenue via in-game micro-transactions.

(Editor's Note: We decided to add in Lew's third article, below, so it puts all of his points in context; please see my comment below).

Here are some Old/New School differences in actual gameplay.
[h=3]Strategy Over Tactics[/h] Military strategy (what you do before battle is joined) is de-emphasized in opposite-of-old-school games. Why?

  • Good strategy requires planning; tactics can become standardized, rule of thumb, easier
  • If the GM is telling a story, he or she wants players to follow the script, not devise their own ways of doing things overall (which is what strategy is all about)
Tactical games, on the other hand, are all about immediate fighting, what 4th edition D&D was built for, what many computer RPGs are built for because computers are at their best in tactics and worst in strategy.
[h=3]Hand-Holding[/h] Old School games are often about exploration, about finding/identifying the objectives. And recognizing when something about a location/opponent makes it too dangerous to take on right now.

Something like a secret door becomes a “dirty GM trick” instead of a challenge for the dungeon-delving skills of the party. “New” games are about being guided by the game (GM) to where the fight is, then fighting, then getting the loot. (You recognize the description of typical computer RPGs, especially MMO RPGs?)

In other words, the GM “holds the hands” of the players, guiding them rather than leaving them to their own devices. Every GM does this on occasion, but it’s the norm in the extreme of New School.
[h=3]What’s Important in Play?[/h] In Old School, it’s the success of the party that counts, much more than the success of the individual. This is a “wartime” attitude now quite uncommon in the USA, but common amongst the Baby Boomer wargamers who originated RPGs. In the extremes of the newer school, it’s the individual that counts (e.g. as expressed in “All About Me” RPGs), not the group. This makes a huge difference in how people play the game.
[h=3]Sport or War?[/h] I talked about this in an earlier column (RPG Combat: Sport or War?). To summarize, in war everything is fair, and stratagems – “a plan or scheme, especially one used to outwit an opponent” - are the ideal. If you get in a fair fight, you’ve screwed up: fair fights are for suckers. That style puts a premium on intelligence-gathering and on strategy. Combat as sport looks for a fair fight that the players will just barely manage to win, often as managed by the GM. Combat as War is less heroic, but it’s a lot more practical from the adventurer’s point of view. And for me, a lot more believable. If a fight is truly fair, you’re going to lose 50% of the time, in the long run. That’s not survivable.
[h=3]Nuance[/h] There are lots of “in-betweens”, of course:

  • What about a campaign where the party can suffer a total or near wipeout, but someone has left a wish with a reliable soul who can wish away the disaster. They can fail (lose), but most or all of them will survive.
  • What about the “All About Me” style I wrote about recently? Usually, there is no possibility of failure, but a GM could put a little failure into the equation if they wished.
  • What about the campaign where everyone knows their character is doomed to die, likely before reaching (in AD&D terms) 10th or 11th level? Then glory (and a glorious death) often becomes the objective.
  • What about the campaign where characters normally survive, but when someone does something egregiously stupid or foolish, the character can die?
  • You can hand-hold players to the point of combat, and still make that combat deadly.
RPGs can accommodate all kinds of tastes. But we don’t have to like every kind, do we?

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
My bet is most any thread as insulting and dismissive to other gamers that the mods not only allowed but endorsed would get a lot of traffic too.

Please do not state that moderators endorse the article, when at least tone of us is rather actively arguing *against* it.
 

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I

Immortal Sun

Guest
Using various D&D editons as an example:

The peaks - those moments where things go well in the fiction, the rules system is working like it should, and everyone's having fun are approximately of equal "height" in all editions.

It's the valleys where the differences lie, both in "depth" and in frequency and-or duration. First off, to get it out of the way, I'll say that opportunities for negative story-based outcomes have always been there, but as such things are not all that quantifyable they don't help with a comparison, which this is.

In older D&D there were many different types of "valleys", everything from stretches of party frustration (can't find the next step) to individual PCs being on the wrong end of a save-or-suck/die to losing levels or valuable gear, to whatever. Character death was but one type of valley. And in all cases sometimes those valleys went on for a while - it might take a session or two before the way forward is found, or a save-or-suck might put someone out of action for half the night, or it might take a long time to recover the lost level or gear, etc.
This is a fine comparison of older vs newer games, with no discernible value judgement on either one, which is great and I'm totally with you.

Newer D&D has done a lot at the system design level to mitigate the depth, frequency, and duration of those valleys. Fail-forward (4e). Save-or-die virtually gone. Save-or-suck durations greatly reduced. Level loss is gone. Magic items almost never have to save vs destruction. It's more difficult for a PC to die (compare 5e's series of death saves with 0e-1e's drop dead at 0 h.p.). The lasting effects of a death-revival cycle are gone. Etc.
This is an accurate statement of things that have been removed or adjusted in newer editions.

Laudable goal, to reduce those valleys...but it leads to an unexpected result. In older D&D the depth and frequency of the valleys made the peaks very special when they occurred, but with the valleys now less deep and less frequent the peaks - while not having changed in and of themselves very much - seem lesser. I know that's not well put, but I'm having trouble putting words to what I'm thinking - if I had the technical knowhow to show this on a chart it'd make more sense.
DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!

While your prior two paragraphs were fine comparisons or accurate statements of how new games have changed, this statement is a value judgement. A personal opinion that because of those other things the result is now a reduction in enjoyment of the game.

Well, this presents a logical problem: a reduction in the enjoyment to whom? Clearly to you of course, but that's the same problem present in the OP. The OP clearly doesn't like NS gaming. It's less fun to him. But what about everyone else? If this thread is demonstrative of anything then it at least shows the sentiment is not universal, and I'm certain some of those with OS gaming history here may enjoy NS gaming even more. So we can't (neither you, or I) make any sort of generalized statement that "due to these changes, there has been a reduction in fun".

Here, let me use some graphs (assume Y is Fun and X is Time)
Lets say this is OS gaming. High peaks, deep valleys.
View attachment 104093
And (using your definitions) lets say this is NS gaming, lower peaks and lower valleys.
View attachment 104094
It's possible (Han: Why don't you go find out?) this is true.
What's just as possible, is that we're seeing this:
View attachment 104095
Or any other variety of combinations!

We have absolutely ZERO factual basis to draw from that NS gaming is less fun than OS gaming. ZERO. Anecdotal evidence by select opinions? Sure. But we have anecdotal evidence for everything. Which is why it's generally considered worthless as evidence for anything.

I read the rest but I'm not going to address it because it's not necessary. This is where the discussion breaks down, where the argument falls on it's face, because it's citations do not support its claims (or any claims really).
 

Aldarc

Legend
I'm saying both, and also saying that both must come from the player/PC side. Fail-forward often seems from the outside more like what I'd call "success backward", where the DM gives you the success but throws in a complication (e.g. you succeed in climbing the wall but there's a guard at the top waiting for you). Well, IMO as soon as that happens it's not a failure any more: a failure means you never reach the top.
It may appear that way to you from the outside, but from the inside, it appears that you are conflating "fail forward" with "success-with-a-cost." Fail Forward is best encapsulated as "You fail and then something happens."

In the case of Fate, a player opting for a "success with a cost" is more appropriately opting into a "success with a major cost." You may have jumped to the next roof successfully, but... You injure your leg in the process. You may have climbed the wall successfully, but... The guards on the wall will drag you up and put you in chains. (One guard waiting would likely be a minor cost.) Or your bungled climbing alerts the entire garrison. Sure you have succeeded. You have outrun the boulder chasing you, but you lose the golden idol you came for to a rival. Sure success is success and failure is failure, but :):):):) happens. Even if you succeed at an action, failure can be a consequence of the action.

Most assuredly, there is overlap between "success with a cost" and "fail forward," but that overlap primarily rests in how both entail the continued momentum of the action/drama/narrative through the introduction of new complications. But this is a difference between "Yes, but..." and "No, but instead..."

Another example: you roll 'fail' on searching for a secret door (or don't even think to search for it at all!) but in the interests of fail-forward and-or story progression the door is revealed anyway when some monsters come out of it and attack. The DM hands you a success; and though once in a rare while it makes both dramatic and realistic sense that something like this might happen, when it starts becoming a regular thing it immediately starts looking contrived and just - bad.
Sure, if this was the only way that 'fail forward' was expressed it would indeed get old quick, but that is often not the case. It's usually one example among many that gets floated often because the "impasse at the wall" is probably the most commonly discussed case study. The preferred approach with fail forward is typically that the consequences proceed from the contexts of the narrative. Guards will not always come out of the dungeon wall. Why would they? There are no theys here, as this crypt has been abandoned by any sentient creatures.

Let us be clear here. Fail Forward is not about precluding character failure; it's about precluding narrative inertia by maintaining a continued momentum, and this continued momentum is not necessarily towards a singular or forward direction (i.e., railroading).
Maybe it's just a terminology thing, but to me fail means fail (you don't reach the top or find the door or whatever) and succeed means succeed (you do reach the top or find the door or whatever) no matter what else gets thrown in to muddy the waters.
This seems simplistic given that it lacks a a certain depth of ranges between full success and full failure, particularly when one holds up such definitions to the light of reality. I have faced success in my failure and failure in my successes. IME the false dichotomy of success and failure does not hold up to scrutiny. And perhaps NSRPGs stem from some dissatisfaction with the more binary approach to character actions and consequences.

Fail-forward in 4e (and other games). As noted above, the general point of fail-forward seems to be to keep the story moving by having the DM find a way to grant success* in place of failure. Though subtle, this does - or very easily can - end up becoming a railroad**. And should the players realize it's happening then things can go sideways in a hurry, if they know the DM isn't going to let them outright fail they'll stop trying so hard to succeed**.
You are adding something extraneous here in your description of 'fail forward,' which ties into your earlier misunderstanding. 'Fail Forward' is not the DM finding a way to grant success to the players. It's a way to keep the action going. That action does not even necessarily require the GM providing the players with any form of success. Nothing requires that the aforementioned secret door will or should open in a 'fail forward' scenario, only that action continues in some manner despite failure. This may mean that a monster drops from the ceiling and chases them down the corridor that leads them elsewhere. Some other trap may be triggered in the process of navigating the room. Have you succeeded in opening the secret door? Nope. The door remains hidden/locked, but the action continues.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!
Where? Where?! :)

While your prior two paragraphs were fine comparisons or accurate statements of how new games have changed, this statement is a value judgement. A personal opinion that because of those other things the result is now a reduction in enjoyment of the game.

Well, this presents a logical problem: a reduction in the enjoyment to whom? Clearly to you of course, but that's the same problem present in the OP. The OP clearly doesn't like NS gaming. It's less fun to him. But what about everyone else? If this thread is demonstrative of anything then it at least shows the sentiment is not universal, and I'm certain some of those with OS gaming history here may enjoy NS gaming even more. So we can't (neither you, or I) make any sort of generalized statement that "due to these changes, there has been a reduction in fun".

Here, let me use some graphs (assume Y is Fun and X is Time)
Lets say this is OS gaming. High peaks, deep valleys.
View attachment 104093
And (using your definitions) lets say this is NS gaming, lower peaks and lower valleys.
View attachment 104094
It's possible (Han: Why don't you go find out?) this is true.
What's just as possible, is that we're seeing this:
View attachment 104095
Or any other variety of combinations!
Thanks for putting those graphs up, as they can help me point out what I'm getting at.

Your third graph is perfect. The red line represents older games while the blue represents newer - the peaks are at about the same "height" but the blue-line valleys are shallower.

My theory is this: because the valleys are shallower the peaks in NS - even though the same absolute height as those in OS - don't stand out as much...and therefore in general aren't as special or as memorable. Couple this with the time factor - your graphs show both as sine waves where OS would actually have longer valleys and shorter peaks, NS the opposite - and yes, in NS the peaks start to lose their significance due to familiarity (though oddly enough any significant valleys have probably gained in significance and memorability, as they're now so much less common).
 

I

Immortal Sun

Guest
Where? Where?! :)

Thanks for putting those graphs up, as they can help me point out what I'm getting at.

Your third graph is perfect. The red line represents older games while the blue represents newer - the peaks are at about the same "height" but the blue-line valleys are shallower.

My theory is this: because the valleys are shallower the peaks in NS - even though the same absolute height as those in OS - don't stand out as much...and therefore in general aren't as special or as memorable. Couple this with the time factor - your graphs show both as sine waves where OS would actually have longer valleys and shorter peaks, NS the opposite - and yes, in NS the peaks start to lose their significance due to familiarity (though oddly enough any significant valleys have probably gained in significance and memorability, as they're now so much less common).

I think the specific mathematical function is irrelevant to the question. How often games have highs and lows is a table-to-table issue, not a NS/OS issue. What we can agree on is that all games will have highs, and all games will have lows. So, it behooves us to keep the variables minimal, and use the same functions for judging any game in a general context. If we start trying to introduce too many variables, especially highly questionable ones like "OS games have more peaks, but deeper valleys" or "NS games have shallower valleys and fewer peaks" we stop being able to have a discussion because we're injecting personal opinion and personal experience with NS/OS games.

My overarching point was not to say that one thing or another is true or false, but to demonstrate that even though we have an X and Y parameter, we lack the data to accurately place the highs of OS gaming or the lows of NS gaming.

Example: IMO, lots of peaks and lots of valleys does not produce a game I'm terribly interested in because it tends to be feel "swingy" and often lacks continuity, things I personally value in games. If every time I hit a valley I have to reroll, only to experience the same every other session or so, I get bored. Extremes of glory and failure are not entertaining to me.
-SubEX: I have a DM who is very OS in his approach and his games are much as above and while I attempt to moderate success and failure as much as any player can, often the extremes are so extreme there is nothing at all you can do. Which becomes distressful, as it feels like my input into the game is meaningless, that my time spent making a character was a waste, and that any value I invest into them will be thrown in the trash. But yes I have many memorable glory moments from those games....but I'm not sure if on the whole the highs and the lows averaged together, produce a "Yes I have fun in his game." answer.

And I suppose, if anything, NS games are attempting to produce a "Yes I have fun playing this game." answer, over a OS "Yes I have some very memorable moments." answer. And I would continue on to posit that the reasoning behind this is that NS games want you to look at the game and say "I have fun playing this." rather than needing to look at Bob's Table and say "I had fun at Bob's Table." Designers can't guarantee that Bob will always hold a great session, but designers can at least to some extent, guarantee that their game will be fun to play.
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
It may appear that way to you from the outside, but from the inside, it appears that you are conflating "fail forward" with "success-with-a-cost." Fail Forward is best encapsulated as "You fail and then something happens."
See below...

In the case of Fate, a player opting for a "success with a cost" is more appropriately opting into a "success with a major cost." You may have jumped to the next roof successfully, but... You injure your leg in the process. You may have climbed the wall successfully, but... The guards on the wall will drag you up and put you in chains. (One guard waiting would likely be a minor cost.) Or your bungled climbing alerts the entire garrison. Sure you have succeeded. You have outrun the boulder chasing you, but you lose the golden idol you came for to a rival.
As soon as you say "a player opting..." and thus implying that players have the meta-ability to overturn dice rolls, my hackles go up. Not at you for saying it, of course; more at the idea that I'd ever take a system with that degree of meta-play seriously. So, moving on...

Sure success is success and failure is failure, but :):):):) happens. Even if you succeed at an action, failure can be a consequence of the action.
I'm trying to separate any and all consequences (which really can be anything on any result) away from the simple succeed-fail binary underlying them.

Most assuredly, there is overlap between "success with a cost" and "fail forward," but that overlap primarily rests in how both entail the continued momentum of the action/drama/narrative through the introduction of new complications. But this is a difference between "Yes, but..." and "No, but instead..."
This is interestingly different to how I've seen fail-forward explained before in here. There it was more success is "Yes" and failure is "Yes, but...". "No, but instead..." wasn't mentioned.

Sure, if this was the only way that 'fail forward' was expressed it would indeed get old quick, but that is often not the case. It's usually one example among many that gets floated often because the "impasse at the wall" is probably the most commonly discussed case study. The preferred approach with fail forward is typically that the consequences proceed from the contexts of the narrative. Guards will not always come out of the dungeon wall. Why would they? There are no theys here, as this crypt has been abandoned by any sentient creatures.
Unfortunately, what it ends up with is that the most common consequence in reality is in effect banned or strongly discouraged in the game: "Nothing happens".

Let us be clear here. Fail Forward is not about precluding character failure; it's about precluding narrative inertia by maintaining a continued momentum, and this continued momentum is not necessarily towards a singular or forward direction (i.e., railroading).
Precluding narrative inertia is problematic when one realizes that for many players and DMs the narrative only moves in one general direction - forward - and that the only way to change its direction is to first bring it to a relative stop. (though rarely do any of them likely ever think in through in those terms) Or, when it's apparent that it has stopped, everyone sees it as an opportunity to change direction if such is desired.

It's like driving a car. You can go 80 mph down a straight highway but you're not going to take the right turn at the lights at that speed, are ya? :)

This seems simplistic given that it lacks a a certain depth of ranges between full success and full failure, particularly when one holds up such definitions to the light of reality. I have faced success in my failure and failure in my successes.
Sure, but you're again conflating consequence with decision point.

IME the false dichotomy of success and failure does not hold up to scrutiny.
Sure it does, if you don't look any further. Ignore consequences.

And perhaps NSRPGs stem from some dissatisfaction with the more binary approach to character actions and consequences.
Action resolution at its core is (almost always) binary, for better or worse - even in real life. Consequences are (almost always) completely open-ended, much more so in the game than in reality I think. Trying to conflate the two just leads to confusion.

You are adding something extraneous here in your description of 'fail forward,' which ties into your earlier misunderstanding. 'Fail Forward' is not the DM finding a way to grant success to the players. It's a way to keep the action going. That action does not even necessarily require the GM providing the players with any form of success. Nothing requires that the aforementioned secret door will or should open in a 'fail forward' scenario, only that action continues in some manner despite failure. This may mean that a monster drops from the ceiling and chases them down the corridor that leads them elsewhere. Some other trap may be triggered in the process of navigating the room. Have you succeeded in opening the secret door? Nope. The door remains hidden/locked, but the action continues.
This perhaps points to another issue - and OS-NS difference - entirely: the expectation of continuous action. Very much a NS thing.
 

5ekyu

Hero
Please do not state that moderators endorse the article, when at least tone of us is rather actively arguing *against* it.
I will with due apologies do so - forgot that moderators and folks making choices on which are "featured" articles are not necessarily the same.

But a lack of actual moderation warnings to the poster still shows that comments of that degree of disparaging and insulting to other playstyles is recognized as acceptable here by anyone- right? There is a strong difference between you as a poster saying in a post how you disagree with it and you as a moderator giving it a red or yellow gig for its content and tone.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I think the specific mathematical function is irrelevant to the question. How often games have highs and lows is a table-to-table issue, not a NS/OS issue. What we can agree on is that all games will have highs, and all games will have lows. So, it behooves us to keep the variables minimal, and use the same functions for judging any game in a general context. If we start trying to introduce too many variables, especially highly questionable ones like "OS games have more peaks, but deeper valleys" or "NS games have shallower valleys and fewer peaks" we stop being able to have a discussion because we're injecting personal opinion and personal experience with NS/OS games.
Of course we are. Otherwise what's the point? :)

My overarching point was not to say that one thing or another is true or false, but to demonstrate that even though we have an X and Y parameter, we lack the data to accurately place the highs of OS gaming or the lows of NS gaming.
We lack all the data, but there's enough to draw some general inferences I think.

The most quantifyable and prove-able data we have is the written rules for the various editions/systems. Parsing those with an eye to what they are trying to achieve tells us quite a bit.

After that, there's personal experience - both our own and that of others, including things posted in this forum and elsewhere. From this we can build a general sense of how things play out in a given edition/system; what its strengths-weaknesses are; how it plays vs how it reads, and what people's ideas are for tweaking or improving them.

Example: IMO, lots of peaks and lots of valleys does not produce a game I'm terribly interested in because it tends to be feel "swingy" and often lacks continuity, things I personally value in games. If every time I hit a valley I have to reroll, only to experience the same every other session or so, I get bored. Extremes of glory and failure are not entertaining to me.
Fair enough. :)

I personally love the extremes of glory and put up with a lot of extremes of failure to make 'em happen! :)

-SubEX: I have a DM who is very OS in his approach and his games are much as above and while I attempt to moderate success and failure as much as any player can, often the extremes are so extreme there is nothing at all you can do. Which becomes distressful, as it feels like my input into the game is meaningless, that my time spent making a character was a waste, and that any value I invest into them will be thrown in the trash. But yes I have many memorable glory moments from those games....but I'm not sure if on the whole the highs and the lows averaged together, produce a "Yes I have fun in his game." answer.
I hear you, and sometimes the week-to-week can feel like a drudge when it's valley time. Ten years from now, however, you'll likely think that game was a rockin' good time mostly because of the glory-moment memories. :)

And I suppose, if anything, NS games are attempting to produce a "Yes I have fun playing this game." answer, over a OS "Yes I have some very memorable moments." answer.
The here-and-now beats the long term. Sums up many things, not just related to gaming. :)
 

5ekyu

Hero
I think the specific mathematical function is irrelevant to the question. How often games have highs and lows is a table-to-table issue, not a NS/OS issue. What we can agree on is that all games will have highs, and all games will have lows. So, it behooves us to keep the variables minimal, and use the same functions for judging any game in a general context. If we start trying to introduce too many variables, especially highly questionable ones like "OS games have more peaks, but deeper valleys" or "NS games have shallower valleys and fewer peaks" we stop being able to have a discussion because we're injecting personal opinion and personal experience with NS/OS games.

My overarching point was not to say that one thing or another is true or false, but to demonstrate that even though we have an X and Y parameter, we lack the data to accurately place the highs of OS gaming or the lows of NS gaming.

Example: IMO, lots of peaks and lots of valleys does not produce a game I'm terribly interested in because it tends to be feel "swingy" and often lacks continuity, things I personally value in games. If every time I hit a valley I have to reroll, only to experience the same every other session or so, I get bored. Extremes of glory and failure are not entertaining to me.
-SubEX: I have a DM who is very OS in his approach and his games are much as above and while I attempt to moderate success and failure as much as any player can, often the extremes are so extreme there is nothing at all you can do. Which becomes distressful, as it feels like my input into the game is meaningless, that my time spent making a character was a waste, and that any value I invest into them will be thrown in the trash. But yes I have many memorable glory moments from those games....but I'm not sure if on the whole the highs and the lows averaged together, produce a "Yes I have fun in his game." answer.

And I suppose, if anything, NS games are attempting to produce a "Yes I have fun playing this game." answer, over a OS "Yes I have some very memorable moments." answer. And I would continue on to posit that the reasoning behind this is that NS games want you to look at the game and say "I have fun playing this." rather than needing to look at Bob's Table and say "I had fun at Bob's Table." Designers can't guarantee that Bob will always hold a great session, but designers can at least to some extent, guarantee that their game will be fun to play.
Also let me say this, it's not my view that the level of memorable or fun or meaningful is a function of the height/amplitude at all.

Often it's the reverse - sort of - the depth of the valleys pull down the fun, even sink it.

Consider that in the context we are talking the valley can be a tpk. The valley can be a shut down campaign. The valley can be a dead PC and a choice to not do that again - be it tossing away a character concept, class or even just deciding "not running that dungeon again."

I can buy that for some if everything is easy with no valleys it's less enjoyable but to try and let depth of amplitude factor into the measure of fun sets up a false result where the worst utter failure the more fun you have in the few successes... not true...

Imo the changes made have weeded out the majority of the catastrophic to campaign failures and the more lasting downers while still very much leaving in the chance of failure that dont risk so much the breaks the campaign results.

That to me is it trading off enjoyment for safety but more creating more fertile ground for enjoyment to flourish.

Simplest case in point, having seen players of various ilks play with me since 1980, as my/our gamestyle evolved and the valley floor really moved away from those "what is at risk often is PC death" more and more character types became acceptable as it stopped being the case that optimizing for survival consumed so many choices.

Next simplest - with PC survival not the mega-risk as much, interacting meaningfully with characters and setting grew - as the "risk" was not seen as life threatening.

Perhaps to disagree with a premise of SAW, the threat level dialed to 11 does not directly lead to greater appreciation of success.

Setting the winning mega-millions ticket is not "more fun" because some lunatic threatens to burn down your house if you lose.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
But a lack of actual moderation warnings to the poster still shows that comments of that degree of disparaging and insulting to other playstyles is recognized as acceptable here by anyone- right?

I wouldn't rely on that if I were you.

Morrus has asked that we leave management of the writers to him, personally. If there's a problem with what an author has written, Morrus handles it, and you will likely not see public moderator comment on the matter.

If you do not like the tone of the articles, or a post made by one of the authors, I would suggest you report them, like you would any other post.
 

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