A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

S'mon

Legend
But what about Tanis's player's internal aspect on Kitiara? Tanis has spent years (? or however long) in love with her, in her company - it seems plausible that Tanis knows her as well as, if not better than, the GM.

Nope. :p

This actually came up in a serious way during the breakdown of my long running Wilderlands campaign. The player of Hakeem the N/CN Barbarian-20 warlord, possible Avatar of Bondorr the Sword Lord, was of the view that his lovely and very Lawful Good wife Malenn, Paladin of Mitra, should be entirely supportive of any decision he made, including his turning against allies (the Bronzes) he felt had betrayed him, culminating in his murdering a mutual long-term ally/friend, the LG/NG brass dragon Dyson, in order to spite them. I with Malenn's perspective am (a) prioritising the future of their son, betrothed to Lord Bronze's daughter & now endangered by Hakeem's actions, and (b) utterly aghast by his behaviour. The player wanted Malenn to be an accessory to his power fantasy; to me looking through her eyes she feels like a real person and I'm not going along with that. I'm not destroying the integrity of Malenn's character, or my campaign world, to keep a player happy. The game for me would no longer be worth running.

The player went as far as to try to fork the campaign with him GMing a universe where Malenn remains loyal to & in love with Hakeem, where the PCs play Hakeem's minions as he takes revenge on the traitorous Bronze former allies. I don't know if he got it off the ground, but it didn't seem a very good idea to me.
 

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Sadras

Legend
[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] you would have used RtD in [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION]'s scenario or would you have said yes, having the wife been an extension of the player's control?
 

Sadras

Legend
What are the rules for PC build?

So there are guidelines in the 5e DMG for magic in a low, medium and high magic-styled campaign, but since this is a 10-I-imagine session campaign only, I'm a little more lax.

And what is the dramatic trajectory of that PC and of the game? Which is to say, how does the player's action declaration relate to those things? Is the player at a cruch-point for his/her PC? Or is the player - whom you've said is new to your game - trying to learn the genre parameters of the game and doing it via in-character interaction rather than out-of-character?

It is a modified B10, the PCs wish to trackdown Golthar who escaped them and according to various clues they suspect strongly (correctly so) that he is on his way to Threshold. The PC ask for the enchanted gem is not due to crunch-point (at least I do not think, see below) it is probably enforced by his idea of what may be available in a land where magic exists.

He was quickly dispatched (unconscious) by one of Golthar's elite goons in a single round when the party had split so one can make that dramatic need connection, since he intends to return the favour should he meet up with that NPC again.

That second bit of the interaction was easily adjudicated via the treasure-parcel rules that are core to 4e.

The treasure-parcel rules does make it easier.
Anyways I'm happy with how I handled it, I just wondered what your take on it would be, since was is not directly find out what is in the DM notes in order to get from A to B in the storyline and certainly had nothing to do with backstory.

Although I play sandbox, because this is a very short-and-specific-and-introductory campaign for 50% of the group, the game has tracks which exist, but nothing overt. The longer they take to track down Golthar and and - the more dangerous the BBEG will be in the end.
 
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Here's my response to this: [MENTION=85870]innerdude[/MENTION] started a thread about how to handle certain aspects of scene framing and adjudication/resolution "without making players play the 'Mother may I' game". From reading the OP of that thread, it's clear that innerdude was not looking for advice on how, as a GM, to avoid "being a douche" or being a "very rare bad DM".

But this thread isn't about inner dude, it is about your issue with my take on Mother May I in the thread, and in particular my statement that X was no more mother may I than in real life. I think I should also point out, while I disagreed with Innerdude on some things, I was able to reach a pretty amicable understanding with that poster. Innderdude even acknowledged my point about these styles being more nuanced and complex than he had originally framed. I didn't have an issue with Innerdude's position, I was working to understand it, and I had just made some side points about a style that got characterized in a post. The issue that cropped up was largely between you and me, not me and Innerdude or other posters. And this thread is just an attempt on your part to win that edge battle (I fight I really didn't even want to have quite frankly). I don't mean to sound like a broken record here, but you keep invoking that original thread, and my recollection of it is much different. Perhaps I am missing some key detail, or forgotten. This thread however, is a much more general discussion on mother may I. I don't think we are beholden to the particular focus of Innerdude's original question (one by the way I was genuinely trying to be helpful in answering in my original response---which is why I was clearly stating things like this might not be for you).
 

pemerton

Legend
[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] you would have used RtD in [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION]'s scenario or would you have said yes, having the wife been an extension of the player's control?
It depends on system and on "story" context. (Because I don't know all the details of S'mon's campaign, some of what I say may, to him, be obviously irrelevant to the particular situation that arose in his game.)

Re the second thing (ie context): a relationship that a PC is part of can either be colour/background, or can be a substantive aspect of gameplay. An example of the former: in my Prince Valiant game, two of the PC knights are married, but their spouses are just colour. The wooing and the weddings were big deals in play (one bigger than the other), but now that they've satisfied their dynastic ambitions they are planning to travel to Byzantium to fight Huns and join a crusade. A different sort of example: in my 4e game, two of the PCs have had familiars. The fact that a familiar is a semi-autonomous entity is, in 4e, just colur: the mechanical abilities conferred by a familiar are, in effect, bonuses conferred by a feat, and the fact that in the fiction there is this other being involved is mere colour.

When a relationship is mere colour then I regard it as something for the player to look after unless s/he does something to bring it into the foreground (eg implanting the Eye of Vecna into one's imp familiar).

This doesn't mean that the relationship will always stay on an even keel. I have at least one player who can be very ruthless towards his own PCs if he thinks that's what the fiction demands.

When a relationship is not mere colour - of my currently active games, Burning Wheel is the main one where non-colour relationships are part of the game - then system becomes relevant.

In some systems, relationships are tagged/categorised as inimical or friendly (eg Burning Wheel) or as a flaw-type attribute or a buff-type attribute (eg HeroQuest revised; Marvel Heroic RP also supports something a bit like this). If a player chooses an inimical/flaw-type relationship then obviously all bets are off - and changing the nature of that relationship would require some significant success on the part of the player in the course of play.

If a player chooses a friendly/buff-type attribute, though, then the opposite applies: having that person turn into an enemy would only be the result of some significant failure in the course of play.

Because D&D (outside of the henchman mechanics) doesn't really treat non-colour relationships as an element of PC build, whether a relationship should be understood as friendly or inimical is going to depend much more on the fictional details; but that doesnt mean the classification is meaningless. Eg if the players succeed in a skill challenge to befriend so-and-so, then it would (in my view) be poor GMing to change the result of that outcome unless the players subsequently stake the relationship on some further outcome. Here's an example of that from my 4e game: the PCs befriended the baron; but then when they discovered his beloved niece was actually a Vecna-ite necromancer they informed him and asked him to deal with her as the law and justice required - the checks on that second occasion were not successful, and the outcome in the fiction was that the baron had an emotional breakdown and collapsed, thus signficinatly reducing the utility to the PCs of their relationship, and depriving the players of much of the benefit of their earlier success. (This example also shows that I regard it as perfectly good GMing, indeed obligatory!, for the GM to put pressure on the PCs' non-colour relationships - that's what drives a character-driven game. But pressure isn't the same as unilateral turning.)

If I look at the Tanis-Kitiara example through the lens of 4e play, then I would imagine that Tanis's player establishes, at the start of play and as an element of PC backstory, that he has an ex-lover who had a dark-side streak. Trying to reestablish connections with her would then be an unfolding skill challenge; or perhaps, in other skill challenges, Tanis's player would declare actions that relate to or draw upon his connection with Kitiara.

A successful check in these circumstances might result in learning some bit of information about Kitiara's whereabouts, or receiving some aid from an unrevealed ally who is (presumably) Kitiara. The first failure in respect of these checks might be narrated as Kitiara having joined the baddies. The second failure might be that not only has she joined the baddies, but she's a leading dragon highlord. The final failure would reveal that she is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, neither a double agent, nor willing to betray the baddies to reunite with Tanis.

This more-or-less conforms to the procedure I described above: each of the player and the GM put up a possibility that falls within the bounds of plausibility and is the outcome that is salient for them; and then the check tells us whose possibility is the one that is actually realised in the shared fiction.
 

pemerton

Legend
It is a modified B10
The same is true for my anecdote about the Order of the Bat. You're probably familiar with the elves - I can't remember now if the black dragon is part of the module's description of the island with the missing idol or is something I added in (but I think I'm right in remembering the missing idol on the island as an idea form the module rather than from me).

The PC ask for the enchanted gem is not due to crunch-point (at least I do not think, see below) it is probably enforced by his idea of what may be available in a land where magic exists.
While recognising the possibility you mention in brackets (which I can't add anything to if you're not sure and you were there as GM!), to me it sounds like the action declaration might have had the goal of helping to establish the parameters of the setting, but by way of in-character interaction rather than out-of-character interaction.

Even though that in-character interaction might be framed as an action declaration ("I ask the merchant to sell me an XYZ!"), if it's real purpose is as I've suggested then it's not really an action declaration at all, because it's not an attempt to change the shared fiction but simply to learn more about its parameters. I think this sort of thing is quite common from new players who are introduced to the game via certain approaches to play that I might (tentatively) call "classic immersion style". Whereas someone who is introduced by way of a very up-front "session zero"-type approach, or who reads a rulebook or sourcebook that sets out genre expectations, what is or isn't possible, etc probably won't need to do that sort of thing, because they would have those other ways of gathering the requisite information.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Even supposing this was true - and for the reasons just given I'm not sure that it is - the post is already made and some hundreds of posts have followed it. The event has happened, the deed is done, lamenting it seems largely pointless.

That's a misrepresentation of what is happening, though. This thread didn't start off with Mother May I being used inappropriately, have some of us come in to defend against the slander, then have the OP retract and move on. If it had, it WOULD be largely pointless to be talking about it now. What happened, though, is people are still clinging to the false notion than D&D is Mother May I when run traditionally and keep using the term. It's not largely pointless to keep defending against renewed attacks.
 

S'mon

Legend
It depends on system and on "story" context. (Because I don't know all the details of S'mon's campaign, some of what I say may, to him, be obviously irrelevant to the particular situation that arose in his game.)...

It's interesting just how starkly different your approach is to mine. It seems like as GM I am in actor-stance inside the head of the NPC, whereas you are in author-stance. Sharing authorship with the players seems a lot more reasonable than sharing headspace.
 

pemerton

Legend
people are still clinging to the false notion than D&D is Mother May I when run traditionally and keep using the term.
Maybe that's because they don't agree with you that it's false!

You don't persuade people that your game doesn't have a feature they dislike by arguing terminology with them. You do that by explaining how your game doesn't really have that feature!

(Of course you might also allow that the game does have the feature, but explain why they're wrong to dislike it. But that's still not an issue of terminology - it's an issue of substance, about how a game works and what is valuable, or not valuable, about that.)
 
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pemerton

Legend
It's interesting just how starkly different your approach is to mine. It seems like as GM I am in actor-stance inside the head of the NPC, whereas you are in author-stance. Sharing authorship with the players seems a lot more reasonable than sharing headspace.
The only game where I'm a player at the moment is a BW game which has big gaps between sessions (trying to squeeze too many active campaigns into too few Sundays). When I'm playing, I don't need to think about big picture stuff and how to manage the outcomes of action resolution - I just declare actions that seem fitting for Thurgon von Pfizer, Last Knight of the Iron Tower.

Which is to say that I approach GMing and playing as quite different roles.

All of the above said, I (pemerton, not Thurgon) paid for some relationship as part of my build of Thurgon - and if the GM unilaterally deprived me of them I'd feel a bit gipped. But I do expect him to put pressure on them - eg in our last session I (Thurgon) was exploring the tower of Evard the sorcerer and found some old letters that suggested that Evard is, in fact, my grandfather. Thurgon's build includes a relationship with his mother and an affiliation with his family; Evard was a character whose existence, and whose tower's existence, as part of the shared fiction was established by a successful Great Masters-wise check made for Thurgon's offsider Aramina, the cynical sorcerer who for some as-yet unestablished reason hangs out with him. So discovering evidence that suggests dubious parentage for Thurgon is a very legitimate way of establishing pressure.

Naturally Thurgon gathered up all the old letters and burned them.
 
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