D&D 5E Group Rule Deal-Breakers

Greg K

Legend
[MENTION=5038]Greg K[/MENTION], I'm wondering if you and all the others out there with such long lists have ever had to find a group. I don't just mean gone looking for another group for some variety, but just to be able to play the game.

Not really. The only time that I have had to find a group was during my original college years as I had moved to a new city. Normally, I have created groups as necessary. However, for a long time, I have pretty much had stable long term groups averaging ten years or more. Most of my player turnover is to long distance moves. Furthermore, at some point, any lost players have been replaced by players recruited by existing players (although, I vet the new players after having had a very disruptive problem player and encountered a few others in other peoples games).

As for having to look for a group just to play, if it ever came down to it, I would simply not play rather than play in a style of game that I do not enjoy. It is not a difficult decision for me to make as I am an advocate of no gaming is better than bad gaming where bad gaming is often subjective and as simple as a style of game one does not enjoy. In fact, I have walked out on campaigns including, temporarily, on the a long term group that I founded, following a return from a semester break to focus on work and classes. To make a long story short during my absence, the newest player took over DMing in my absence. He also brought in a friend whom was a "butt-kicker' that only liked combat. The guy would be disruptive if the game moved away from combat so the DM tailored the game to his friend. I didn't have fun so I informed the DM I would not be returning (A day or two later, we talked and he was not having fun running the game He talked with the long term players and learned that hey were not having fun, but were accommodating just to have a game. The DM altered the game to the group's preferred style).

I also walked out of a boss's group after two sessions. They were nice guys and I continued to play Risk and Talisman with them, but I did not continue in their high level AD&D game in which characters were modeled after various comic book superheroes. It is just not my type of fun D&D.

(Note: I am much more picky about fantasy than other genres- especially, when using D&D as the system. For other genres, it often comes down to the mechanics of the system where the deal breaker is a lot of D&Disms in terms of mechanics).
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
If the party chooses and can walk away at any time to pursue other interests and explore the larger setting, that might be fine. If it is the DM saying, I am limiting to this seacoast or I am running this adventure so make up characters that fit and have a reason to adventure, not interested.
Fair enough.

I just find it easier to run a canned module than to dream up my own, and I have a whole bunch of modules here; about half the time I can find something that'll fit what needs fitting and the other half are my own.

An example: within my current campaign I ran what amounted to a mini adventure path of 5 adventures, fairly confident that if I could get them to bite on the hooks for the first one they'd follow the story and go through all five...which became six without my really intending it to. The adventures:

1. Canned, though modified somewhat and with a much different backstory than written
2. Homebrew, building off the canned one
3. Canned, modified, following on from 2
4. Homebrew follow-on from 3 (and not one of my best, I found a way to cut it short after a while to get to...)
5. Homebrew surface, canned upper levels, homebrew lower levels - the boss battle (destruction of a sleeping deity)
6. Homebrew - they realized they'd better try to clean up some of the ramifications of 5. This one was last-minute on my part, the others had been in mind for ages.

So, two-and-a-half canned modules (taken from two very different D&D editions - 1e and 4e) out of a six-adventure track. It can be done. :)

Lanefan

EDIT: p.s. the canned bits of the #5 adventure above were from the same WG4 Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun to which I referred earlier, only it wasn't Tharizdun in there... :)
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
Somewhere between a deal-breaking rule and a pet peeve:

Secret - or not-so-secret - permission for the Stoopid alignment. This may be a Classic LG Paladin who smites every hint of less-than-goodness that crosses his path (to the detriment of the alleged adventure plot), or the Classic CE Half-Orc Barbarian who attacks the police when they interrupt his robbery of the supply shop and killing of the harmless proprietor.

A character who cannot possibly get along in any society because every interaction turns into combat... or a group thereof (murder-hobo-ism to the Nth power).
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
That's cool with me as long as the players know this up front and are on board. It could be this player was really looking forward to shadowstepping and is now being nerfed because of how you see your world as not a place they can do what they were thinking would be cool. As a DM I will usually think about why something is 'too powerful' when the game is filled with powers, abilities and creatures that defy credulity. Why can't the players have a bit of that power, too, and what can I do to measure it in a way that gives them that freedom but keeps key elements of my story in play? The PH provides an image of what a character may grow to be capable of. Why should the DM become the gatekeeper to those abilities beyond ensuring the players 'earn' that right via xp?

Now some folks see this as DM-crafting that takes their players abilities into consideration when setting the world and that this breaks the DM's 'impartiality' in how a world should be a sandbox independent from the PCs and what they bring to it. I disagree with that. Did Chris Claremont not take the X-Men's powers into consideration when writing the comic? Or were they at times critical to the narrative? The difference in D&D is that there are two perspectives on the story - the DM presenting it and the players reacting & shaping it with their decisions and abilities to do so.

Yes, they know about it ahead of time. I make it very clear before we even get started that this isn't a RAW game, and explain my approach and the setting ahead of time. I also provide my own compiled ruleset and setting information ahead of time. To me communication is key.

And it's not usually a question of too-powerful to me as world changing. It's not that I have a problem with a monk having that power. The problem I have is that every monk of that archetype has that power. As I noted in the post you quoted, I didn't say he can't have the ability, just that it's not one that all rogues get just for reaching a certain level.

D&D encompasses a mechanical rule-set and a host of settings, including a great many home-brew ones. Long-term campaigns were built using the rules of the world based on whatever edition was available at the time. There isn't any reason why I should be penalized and have to use old rulesets just because I don't want to change the nature of my established setting. I also don't think that they should cater to me and make a game that matches my setting (and everybody else's) as well.

The current ruleset is designed around a different set of assumptions. OD&D/AD&D were originally designed on the assumption that the DM would create their own world, and run a campaign that allowed characters to live and die, with adventures that were often disconnected with no grand overarching story. Now it's the opposite. It still supports that style of play, but the game is published with the idea that you can pick up the PHB, MM and an AP and it's a self-contained game. Ready for another one? Pick up another AP. There's nothing wrong with this, and it makes great business sense. It just means that a lot of what's released isn't going to fit my ongoing campaign.

I'm an old-school DM who claims primary ownership of the setting, that I'm here to provide the place for you to play. I like continuity, consistency, and things to make sense. I'm always open to suggestions and input, but I've also found that with every edition they could have made different decisions and people could be just as happy. That doesn't mean the players don't have any input, but things that have been a consistent part of the campaign for that period aren't likely to change much.

Yes, the X-Men's powers were taken into consideration when writing the comic. But that's because the X-Men were the only group of "adventurers" to play in that world (barring a few crossovers). That is, they were the only X-Men. That's quite different from a world where there can be thousands of Wolverines running around. If it was a Superman comic, except that the world was populated with thousands of Supermen, that can fly and all of the other things that he can do, then the world would be a different place.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Not really. The only time that I have had to find a group was during my original college years as I had moved to a new city. Normally, I have created groups as necessary. However, for a long time, I have pretty much had stable long term groups averaging ten years or more. Most of my player turnover is to long distance moves. Furthermore, at some point, any lost players have been replaced by players recruited by existing players (although, I vet the new players after having had a very disruptive problem player and encountered a few others in other peoples games).

As for having to look for a group just to play, if it ever came down to it, I would simply not play rather than play in a style of game that I do not enjoy. It is not a difficult decision for me to make as I am an advocate of no gaming is better than bad gaming where bad gaming is often subjective and as simple as a style of game one does not enjoy. In fact, I have walked out on campaigns including, temporarily, on the a long term group that I founded, following a return from a semester break to focus on work and classes. To make a long story short during my absence, the newest player took over DMing in my absence. He also brought in a friend whom was a "butt-kicker' that only liked combat. The guy would be disruptive if the game moved away from combat so the DM tailored the game to his friend. I didn't have fun so I informed the DM I would not be returning (A day or two later, we talked and he was not having fun running the game He talked with the long term players and learned that hey were not having fun, but were accommodating just to have a game. The DM altered the game to the group's preferred style).

I also walked out of a boss's group after two sessions. They were nice guys and I continued to play Risk and Talisman with them, but I did not continue in their high level AD&D game in which characters were modeled after various comic book superheroes. It is just not my type of fun D&D.

(Note: I am much more picky about fantasy than other genres- especially, when using D&D as the system. For other genres, it often comes down to the mechanics of the system where the deal breaker is a lot of D&Disms in terms of mechanics).

In my experience, having a restrictive approach hasn't really limited my options. As the DM, of course, it's almost always in the style I want to play, because that's the game I'm going to run.

My campaigns are very old-school in the sense that I allow only the races in the AD&D PHB and much of UA, classes are restricted (no barbarians, druids, monks, although they exist, they are almost always NPC classes), special abilities for the classes are often tweaked to bring them into line, there are level limits based on ability score, and ASis aren't as generous, combat is more deadly by design, healing magic is less effective, and resurrection magic of any sort is almost never available, etc.

And yet, I literally have a waiting list for people to join right now (and will probably be starting a second night to accommodate more people.

I'd say that having a well-defined (some would say overly restrictive) game makes it easier to find people that stick around for a long time because it's much clearer what they are getting into. It's not just "a D&D game" which could be any of dozens of play-styles and tone. People coming to my table know what to expect. The only one that's a bit of an issue for me right now is somebody who outright stated they are all about power, that they absolutely will be a power gamer, and I explained this probably isn't the campaign for you. And it is becoming a bit of a problem not because of them wanting more power, but because they aren't engaging with the world and the story. He's a character (ranger) from the same town as everybody else (one of my requirements right now, because I want them to be well grounded in the campaign), and yet, when he witnesses an innocent being attacked by an orc, he saved the person, but then wants to know if he's wounded enough that he's unconscious so he can rob him while he's still in the room. When he realizes that the guy is awake and looking at him, his solution is to just go next door to another place to rob. This is while the entire town is being attacked by orcs, and the rest of the party is fighting to save the townspeople. Afterwards, the rest of the party returns to the tavern to discuss clues, and plans, and the table is all involved except for him, who is alternately sitting in the corner by himself, or wandering around outside (at night, while the villagers are recovering from this orc attack) to see if anybody has a job that they'll hire him for because he wants to make more money. I really should have gone with my gut and saved the space for somebody who wants to engage in our style of play.

So I highly recommend that you have a good understanding of what you like. It doesn't mean you can't branch out, and I have run a few games with 5e RAW, but in the end I only have so much time I can put into it, and I'd like to spend that time playing it the way I enjoy the most.
 

Salamandyr

Adventurer
I find myself in agreement with the way [MENTION=6778044]Ilbranteloth[/MENTION] does things. Not every character class has to represent a "job" somebody can have in the D&D universe. We don't need Orders of Paladins to have paladins. We just need one guy (the PC) the gods have chosen to bless with those kinds of powers. We don't need tribes of BearBarians; we just need one guy (the PC) who has made a vision quest to the mountaintop to request the blessing of the Bear spirits. Maybe not every priest is a cleric, but the PC is the once in a lifetime holy scion blessed with the powers of the gods.

Yeah...fighters are going to exist, but there might be only one Champion. Do sorcerors need to be common? Gandalf was a wizard and Radagast was a druid but they were both Wizards.

One can play the D&D game entirely RAW and still keep control of the world, as long as one reinforces the idea that PC's are exceptions even when they're playing as classic a concept as the paladin or cleric.
 

nswanson27

First Post
Somewhere between a deal-breaking rule and a pet peeve:

Secret - or not-so-secret - permission for the Stoopid alignment. This may be a Classic LG Paladin who smites every hint of less-than-goodness that crosses his path (to the detriment of the alleged adventure plot), or the Classic CE Half-Orc Barbarian who attacks the police when they interrupt his robbery of the supply shop and killing of the harmless proprietor.

A character who cannot possibly get along in any society because every interaction turns into combat... or a group thereof (murder-hobo-ism to the Nth power).

This. Basically it comes down to a player willing to sacrifice the group objective in order to "express" their character. You can argue that isn't realistic, as any such adventurer would have gotten themselves a Darwin Award before starting out to be an adventurer.
 

Phion

Explorer
Somewhere between a deal-breaking rule and a pet peeve:

Secret - or not-so-secret - permission for the Stoopid alignment. This may be a Classic LG Paladin who smites every hint of less-than-goodness that crosses his path (to the detriment of the alleged adventure plot), or the Classic CE Half-Orc Barbarian who attacks the police when they interrupt his robbery of the supply shop and killing of the harmless proprietor.

A character who cannot possibly get along in any society because every interaction turns into combat... or a group thereof (murder-hobo-ism to the Nth power).

Agreed. It depends on the player sometimes though, I know a few people who can pull those characters off without being obnoxious but then I also know a number of players who use their characters backstory and alignment as an excuse to justify actions they just feel like doing at that moment of time.
 


neobolts

Explorer
If the party chooses and can walk away at any time to pursue other interests and explore the larger setting, that might be fine. If it is the DM saying, I am limiting to this seacoast or I am running this adventure so make up characters that fit and have a reason to adventure, not interested.

tl;dr: There's no compromise? It's hard to manage highly detailed worldbuilding without some concept of where within the setting the party will operate.

Full version:
There's no give-and-take at all? What if the DM lays out a well-developed setting and says "You can go anywhere, but I feel the lore for the seacoast is really central and compelling. You may want to consider focusing there."

I've got a homebrew setting that been running on-and-off for 16 years. I can run on-the-fly anything the PCs dream up and answer with confidence any lore questions. But if I'm putting countless hours into the political intrigue of a particular continent and tossing adventure hooks for that area left and right, and PCs decide to go to another continent entirely...it would be frustrating.
 

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