RPG Evolution: Is the OSR Dead?

As kids who grew up with Dungeons & Dragons have gotten older, they've entered a new phase of gaming. These adult gamers now have enough influence as customers and game designers to return tabletop gaming to its roots. But if their efforts to bring back a past industry end up shaping the future of gaming, is it really Old School anymore? Picture courtesy of Pixabay. The Four Year Cycle To...

As kids who grew up with Dungeons & Dragons have gotten older, they've entered a new phase of gaming. These adult gamers now have enough influence as customers and game designers to return tabletop gaming to its roots. But if their efforts to bring back a past industry end up shaping the future of gaming, is it really Old School anymore?

gamers-round-1955286_960_720.jpg

Picture courtesy of Pixabay.

The Four Year Cycle

To explain the popularity of the OSR, it's helpful to understand what changed about gamers: they grew up. In the early days of gaming, the time available to early role-players was much more limited, as Kenneth Hite explains:
Role-playing gamers traditionally enter the hobby around ages 12 or 13, before high school. They play until age 16 (dropping out with the availability of a car, and the concomitant expansion of available competing activities), re-enter the hobby in college (when mobility and choice are artificially constrained again) and drift out of it after graduation, marriage, childbirth, or other life changes. By this understanding, a typical gaming group lasts only four years at the most...
That cycle is no longer true. The "graduation, marriage, childbirth," etc. has its own duration, and once life settled in older gamers rediscovered the role-playing games they loved. Their limited time made them crave games they knew, the ones they grew up with. Mike Mearls, Senior Manager of Dungeons & Dragons Research and Design, outlined the dilemma facing today's gamers on a PAX East Panel:
I believe that's what's really happening to tabletop roleplaying, is that it used to be a hobby of not playing the game you want to play. And there are so many games now that you can play to fill all those hours of gaming, you can actually game now, and that what's happening is that RPGs needed that time, we, a GM or DM needed that time to create the adventure or create a campaign, a player needed that time to create a character, allocate skill ranks and come up with a background, and come up, you know, write out your three-page essay on who your character was before the campaign. That time is getting devoured, that time essentially I think is gone, that you could play stuff that lets you then eventually play a game or you can just play a game. And people are just playing games now.
This nostalgia fueled the creation of many imitators, some successful, some not -- and the brand owners of D&D had a sometimes contentious relationship with their fans, as well shall see.

Love D&D, but Don't LOVE D&D

Budding game designers have always tinkered with the games of the past. Throughout the 90s, a lot of energy went into improving Dungeons & Dragons without really breaking fully away from it. Ron Edwards called them "fantasy heartbreakers," which he described as:
...truly impressive in terms of the drive, commitment, and personal joy that's evident in both their existence and in their details - yet they are also teeth-grindingly frustrating, in that, like their counterparts from the late 70s, they represent but a single creative step from their source: old-style D&D. And unlike those other games, as such, they were doomed from the start.
One of the reasons "fantasy heartbreakers" existed was because there was no legal means for aspiring game designers to easily launch their own variants. Frank Mentzer, the father of the BECMI version of D&D, explained to me in an interview:
In the Bad Old Days, TSR filed a lot legal actions against fans who tried to publish things that, in the opinion of TSR's lawyers, infringed on their property. But in 2000, WotC created the "Open Game License" (OGL), which changed all that. If another company published an adventure for the D&D game and simply included that License (a one-page thing), they didn't get sued. Wizards didn't have to beat up their fans to appease the lawyers!
Eventually, the tide turned as gamers became less interested in improving on D&D and more in recapturing the elements of the game they enjoyed. They also had a back catalog of content they wanted to play again, so compatibility was paramount. The proliferation of older gamers and the Open Game License (OGL) primed the market for a gaming renaissance. What, exactly, that renaissance constitutes is open to interpretation.

What's OSR Anyway?

Shannon Appelcline defined the OSR in Designers & Dragons:
The OSR in OSRIC stands for “Old School Reference.” The grassroots movement that it generated also uses the abbreviation OSR, but with a different meaning: usually “Old School Renaissance,” but maybe “Old School Revival.” Some people also say that OSR can mean “Open Source Rules,” since that was the initial intent of OSRIC — though this idea has faded in recent years.
Mentzer defined OSR a little more broadly:
Whether the "R" in OSR is Renaissance, Revival, Resurgence, or something else, the "OSR" is simply a Re-appreciation of the simplicity of the original games.
Whatever the definition, the sheer number of OSR-style products in the early aughts meant it was more than a passing fad. Eventually, the OSR became so powerful that it began shaping how designers thought about game design, most specifically the latest incarnation of Dungeons & Dragons. Mentzer explained what changed when I interviewed him:
The evolution and changes in the D&D game have often increased what we designers call 'granularity' -- the level of detail at which you handle combat and other events. But when it's more granular, it takes more time to resolve all those details, and that means a slower game. This is neither right nor wrong, but is definitely a Style. If a player learns a 'newschool' game and is happy with it, great; I'm absolutely in favor of ANY game that we play face-to-face, in contrast to the online or computer game experience. If that player is then introduced to a less-granular game with faster play, he or she may incline toward it, and often that way points toward Old School.
The OGL would provide designers a means of expressing all of these play styles and more.

Enter the OGL

Ryan Dancey, VP at Wizards of the Coast (WOTC) leading Dungeons & Dragons at the time, launched the OGL with the intent of ensuring D&D would live on in perpetuity. Citing the Theory of Network Externalities, Dancey envisioned a license that would bolster sales of the main Dungeons & Dragons rule books by encouraging more players to play ANY role-playing game. Dancey called this the Skaff effect, named after game designer Skaff Elias:
All marketing and sales activity in a hobby gaming genre eventually contributes to the overall success of the market share leader in that genre.
Using the OGL, WOTC's efforts opened the way for game companies to take on the risky costs of creating adventures, while supporting the sales of the three core rule books that made up Dungeons & Dragons: the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual. By opening the license to small developers, the gaming scene exploded, with more content than ever before. In addition to the sales benefits to WOTC, Dancey also hoped that the OGL would encourage innovation:
The other great effect of Open Gaming should be a rapid, constant improvement in the quality of the rules. With lots of people able to work on them in public, problems with math, with ease of use, of variance from standard forms, etc. should all be improved over time. The great thing about Open Gaming is that it is interactive -- someone figures out a way to make something work better, and everyone who uses that part of the rules is free to incorporate it into their products. Including us. So D&D as a game should benefit from the shared development of all the people who work on the Open Gaming derivative of D&D.
This allowed some interesting divergent paths for fantasy role-playing, but perhaps not in the way Dancey expected. Chad Perrin explains:
The result was growing troubles in the implicit partnership between WotC and the publishers that produced competing works. In an effort to differentiate their products from the WotC products that were eating into their markets, some of these publishers (e.g. Crafty Games and Green Ronin Publishing) started producing their own variations on the d20 System for fantasy RPGs, diluting the core game market for WotC in an attempt to remain solvent in the face of an invasion of the niches WotC had created for them by WotC itself.
The advent of the Fourth Edition of Dungeons & Dragons was a turning point for the OGL, fragmenting fans of the game. Perrin divided them into three groups:
One was the old school, "grognard" market that preferred D&D editions prior to 3E, often the older the better; another was the d20 System market, a mix of people who started with 3E and liked it there and those who passed through two, three, even four or so major D&D product line upheavals and found 3E the best so far in a steady improvement lifecycle; and the 4E gamers, who found its tactical complexity and balance superior to anything that came before and prioritized that higher than other aspects of the D&D game that had previously been at least equal partners with the tactical aspects since the original D&D emerged from the Chainmail miniatures game in the '70s.
The "grognard" market would go on to strongly influence future games by tailoring the OGL to recreate the kind of games they enjoyed as kids. Mearls explains what he thinks went right and wrong:
In the end, it failed to achieve the same type of success as open source software. In table top gaming, "open source" became a value neutral entry fee to gain access to the D&D mechanics. We never saw the iterative design process embraced by software developers primarily because RPGs lack easily defined metrics for quality, success, and useful features, a big shortcoming compared to software.
The OSR wasn't about "rapid, constant improvement in the quality of rules" but rather what rules they could remove to mimic the feel of earlier editions. The OSR ended up looking more backward than forward. That doesn't take away from the remarkable innovation that the OGL engendered. Marty Walser credits Dancey and the OGL for the OSR's success:
Without Ryan Dancey, it is uncertain whether the OSR (Old School Revival) movement would still exist... Or at the very least, it would look nothing like it does today. Ryan Dancey made it possible for all of us to play D&D compatible games until eternity, because regardless of what happens to D&D as a brand, D&D as a game will forever live on.

Making Peace With the Past

One of the ongoing challenges that TSR faced was the fragmentation of its player base between different settings and different editions, as described by Allen Rausch:
The many settings also contributed to something called "Brand Dilution." The original Dungeons & Dragons brand stood for something. You knew essentially what you were getting when you bought a D&D product. All of these new settings began to play havoc with the rule sets and philosophy of the game. As the settings grew more popular, they began to diverge from one another, advancing along their chosen philosophical paths, essentially becoming their own separate games. In not too many years, players had stopped identifying themselves as D&D players and were instead identifying themselves by the setting they played in.
With the advent of the Internet, publishers no longer had control over the obsolescence of a game -- games could live on forever in digital format. WOTC's acquisition of TSR and the D&D brand paved the way for new editions, but it also inherited TSR's baggage. WOTC was faced with a choice: continue waging TSR's battle against the proliferation of D&D clones or embrace them.

The OGL, modeled after open software design, was a key part of how content was shared on the Internet. But the OGL didn't work out that way, as Mearls explains:
There was a time when I pictured an active community of designers, all grinding away on D&D to make it better. I think that happened, but only in a fragmentary manner. Some people wanted levels gone, others wanted hit points fixed (with "fixed" defined differently for each group). At the end of the day, most people wanted books of monsters, character options, and adventures. Products either stuck with the baseline or created a new baseline for a fragment of the original audience to then stick to.
It took some time, but eventually the open-design thinking seeped into the development of the Fifth Edition of D&D -- undoubtedly influenced by the fact that Mearls' gaming cred was grounded in dozens of OGL-powered products. He explained in an interview:
I think that if we do our jobs right, that fragmentation will give way to a shared language like you saw with the SRD and the games it helped spawn. In terms of game designers, I think that, again, if we do this right they’ll have a nice starting point to tinker with in creating their own ideas.
WOTC helped fuel the OSR by re-releasing the original Dungeons & Dragons boxed set and reprinting the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons tomes. It was a sea change for the D&D brand. WOTC recognized that there was a market for older products and even supported them by releasing older editions of D&D in PDF format. Steve Wieck, COO of OneBookShelf, Inc., shared with me in an interview:
We have been in constant dialogue with Wizards every year since we opened our virtual doors. Granted that from 2009 to 2011 there wasn’t a lot of dialogue to have, but as the next edition was announced and Wizards has geared up support for all prior editions, we started having constructive dialogue with the team at Wizards last year. It was a jaw-dropper for me when Wizards let us know that they had already collected hundreds upon hundreds of classic titles and had them all re-digitized at high resolution. Wizards had not been idle on the digital product front.
Since WOTC's embrace of its digital back catalog, there have been many OSR variants, each encompassing a different style and edition of past versions of D&D. One of the more popular is OSRIC, as Appelcline explained:
Today most people mark the release of OSRIC (2006) as the start of the grassroots OSR movement. This was the first actual retroclone; it tried to specifically recreate a past game system (AD&D) rather than just recreating its feel — as Castles & Crusades had. In addition, OSRIC wasn’t a commercial release. It was instead a free download that was mainly intended to give publishers a legal basis for publishing AD&D modules.
OSRIC was just the beginning. Castles & Crusades from Troll Lord Games streamlines the OGL rules so they are more in the spirit of the Original Dungeons & Dragons boxed set. HackMaster by Kenzer and Company continued a series of compatible rules for Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. Mentzer explains how the OGL helped the proliferation:
That gave rise to various reincarnations of the original games -- OD&D, Holmes, Moldvay, BECMI, 1st and 2nd edition Advanced, and others (oft called 'clones', though they're not really) -- and now every fan can publish legally, just by including that OGL (and following its rules of course). Before those 'clones', you had to pay out $100 or more to get those out-of-print rules, but now these reincarnations are available for far more reasonable prices, and are sometimes even free.
Appelcline adds to the OSR list:
The most successful retroclones have probably been: OSRIC (2006), a recreation of AD&D; and Labyrinth Lord (2007), a retroclone for Tom Moldvay’s original Basic D&D. However, there are numerous other retroclones on the market, all published by small companies and sometimes even given away for free. Among the more prominent are: Dark Dungeons (2010), a D&D Rules Cyclopedia clone; Mutant Future (2008), a Labyrinth Lord variant intended to recreate Gamma World play; and Swords & Wizardry (2008), an OD&D clone.

D&D Returns to its Roots...Again

The success of the OSR has been unprecedented. In fact, it's so popular that Appelcline argues it's not even a movement anymore:
Beginning in 2012, some fans have suggested that the OSR is dead — not because it’s faded out, but because it’s succeeded. Fans on blogs have become companies publishing print products, while larger publishers like Goodman Games have proven very successful with their own OSR releases. Even Wizards of the Coast seems to be moving toward the OSR with its AD&D-like D&D Next and with releases of classic PDFs on Dungeon Masters Guild -.
The announcement of Fifth Edition Dungeons & Dragons had a conciliatory tone that focused on bringing fans of all editions back into the fold. Robert Schwalb, a designer on the development team, shared how they plan to accomplish a grand unification:
Our primary goal is to produce a rules set that speaks to every incarnation of D&D. So if you are a diehard BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia enthusiast or have embraced 4th edition, loved 2nd edition, 3rd edition, or never moved on from 1st edition, we’re creating this game for you. Imagine a game where you can play the version of D&D you love best. And then imagine everyone plays at the same table, in the same adventure. We aim to make a universal game system that lets you play the game in whatever way, whatever style, with whatever focus you want, whether you want to kick down doors and kill monsters, engage in high intrigue, intense roleplaying, or simply to immerse yourself in a shared world. We’re creating a game where the mechanics can be as complex or as light as you want them. We’re creating the game you want to play.
Just how much the Fifth Edition was influenced by the OSR was answered in Mike Mearls' Ask Me Anything (AMA) on Reddit:
...It’s really about getting back to the core roots of RPGs, and seeing how things changed for both the better and worse over 40 years. There are a lot of assumptions that became embedded in RPG design that have been unchallenged. Looking back and really studying RPGs – both new and old – helped give us a sense of what we had to keep and what prior elements of the game needed to be re-emphasized...The concept behind the OSR – lighter rules, more flexibility, leaning on the DM as referee – were important. We learned a lot playing each edition of D&D and understanding the strengths and weaknesses each brought to the table. Similar to the OSR, I think indie games bring lighter rules via focus and an emphasis on storytelling to the table that we learned a lot from. While a traditional RPG like D&D by necessity has a much broader focus than traditional indie games, there’s a lot to learn there in being clear and giving people a good, starting goal or framework to work within. For OSR stuff, we drew directly on older editions of D&D.
OSR-style games currently capture over 9 percent of the RPG market according to ENWorld's Hot Role-playing Games. If you consider the Fifth Edition of Dungeons & Dragons to be part of that movement, it's nearly 70 percent of the entire RPG market.

The OSR has gone mainstream. If the OSR stands for Old School Renaissance, it seems the Renaissance is over: D&D, in all of its previous editions, is now how most of us play our role-playing games.
 

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Michael Tresca

Michael Tresca

S'mon

Legend
But old-school D&D wasn't heroic fantasy. I don't know what to call it, exactly: "Tomb-Robber-and-Treasure-Hunter Fantasy" isn't really a thing. The core game experience wasn't about becoming a hero and saving the world, it was about exploring an extremely dangerous wilderness and/or underworld and winning fame and fortune. The classic rules supported that style of play extremely well. The 5e rules and the expectations they create push back against it more than a little.

Maybe it's because I tweaked the rules in my 5e campaign a bit, and my player group are
grognards, but I find the 5e system supports "adventurous treasure hunters" very well. My Wilderlands 5e campaign bears very little resemblance to the 'heroic adventure path' play of the 5e
published campaigns or most Pathfinder APs, and 5e seems to support this play style well; 4e did not and 3e/PF isn't great at it either, but 5e seems fine.
 

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Maybe it's because I tweaked the rules in my 5e campaign a bit, and my player group are
grognards, but I find the 5e system supports "adventurous treasure hunters" very well. My Wilderlands 5e campaign bears very little resemblance to the 'heroic adventure path' play of the 5e
published campaigns or most Pathfinder APs, and 5e seems to support this play style well; 4e did not and 3e/PF isn't great at it either, but 5e seems fine.

I'd like to follow up with this thought here, but that's a subject for another thread.
 

Maybe it's because I tweaked the rules in my 5e campaign a bit, and my player group are
grognards, but I find the 5e system supports "adventurous treasure hunters" very well. My Wilderlands 5e campaign bears very little resemblance to the 'heroic adventure path' play of the 5e
published campaigns or most Pathfinder APs, and 5e seems to support this play style well; 4e did not and 3e/PF isn't great at it either, but 5e seems fine.

I think it's not bad, but it's not as good as B/X. I could do it with the Basic Rules and the following house rules:

* Remove backgrounds (at least the crunch).
* Use the no-skills optional rules from the DMG.
* Remove feats and ASIs.
* Look for a way to simplify/eliminate some class abilities.
* Allow multiclassing, I guess, but implement a maximum level gap to eliminate dips.
* Use some combination of optional and house rules to revise short/long rests to emphasize resource management.
* Use the slow natural healing optional rule.
* Do something with cantrips. Not sure what. Think about ritual spells.
* House rule the whole experience system and slow advancement rate.
* Do something to simplify/streamline monsters. Kinda tough when even kobolds have special abilities.

Of course, at that point, I'm not really playing 5e. Alternatively, I could just use B/X more-or-less out of the box. I just feel like 5e is really good for a more "develop at start" heroic fantasy campaign where the expectation is that you spend some time creating (or "building") a fairly detailed character, with robust mechanical support for that, and with the expectation that he will be (barring misfortune) one of the heroes of this epic story. And B/X is really good for a "develop in play" old-school campaign where a PC is created in five minutes and often dead in less than five. The expectation is that the survivors may develop into heroes in the course of play.

All that mechanical weight in 5e that is important to support "hero building" is just excess baggage for an old-school game. Likewise, all those character skills and abilities actually detract from a play style that emphasizes player skill and experience and uses "ruling over rules" to resolve outcomes. In short (too late), I want characters who are defined by what they do in the game and not how they're built mechanically before the game begins. And it's the same with monsters, really. I can run kobolds who are nasty in packs without mechanical special abilities to define them. I don't need the expansive stat blocks this produces.

Again, 5e is good. I like it a lot. I'll happily play it in a campaign that plays to its strengths and lets it show its stuff. I just don't think that kind of campaign is "old school."
 

S'mon

Legend
I think it's not bad, but it's not as good as B/X. I could do it with the Basic Rules and the following house rules:

* Remove backgrounds (at least the crunch).
* Use the no-skills optional rules from the DMG.
* Remove feats and ASIs.
* Look for a way to simplify/eliminate some class abilities.
* Allow multiclassing, I guess, but implement a maximum level gap to eliminate dips.
* Use some combination of optional and house rules to revise short/long rests to emphasize resource management.
* Use the slow natural healing optional rule.
* Do something with cantrips. Not sure what. Think about ritual spells.
* House rule the whole experience system and slow advancement rate.
* Do something to simplify/streamline monsters. Kinda tough when even kobolds have special abilities.

Of course, at that point, I'm not really playing 5e. Alternatively, I could just use B/X more-or-less out of the box. I just feel like 5e is really good for a more "develop at start" heroic fantasy campaign where the expectation is that you spend some time creating (or "building") a fairly detailed character, with robust mechanical support for that, and with the expectation that he will be (barring misfortune) one of the heroes of this epic story. And B/X is really good for a "develop in play" old-school campaign where a PC is created in five minutes and often dead in less than five. The expectation is that the survivors may develop into heroes in the course of play.

All that mechanical weight in 5e that is important to support "hero building" is just excess baggage for an old-school game. Likewise, all those character skills and abilities actually detract from a play style that emphasizes player skill and experience and uses "ruling over rules" to resolve outcomes. In short (too late), I want characters who are defined by what they do in the game and not how they're built mechanically before the game begins. And it's the same with monsters, really. I can run kobolds who are nasty in packs without mechanical special abilities to define them. I don't need the expansive stat blocks this produces.

Again, 5e is good. I like it a lot. I'll happily play it in a campaign that plays to its strengths and lets it show its stuff. I just don't think that kind of campaign is "old school."

Well, I do some of the things you suggest, eg use the optional Slow Healing rule, eliminate Background mechanical effects, effectively remove skills. I don't know why you think allowing multiclassing is desirable though. Mechanical heft? Hmm, here are the pregens I provided my players:

Human Fighter Level 1
AC 18 Speed 30'
Hit Points: 12 Healing Dice: 1 (d10+2)
STR 16 (+3) DEX 14 (+2) CON 15 (+2) INT 9 (-1) WIS 11 (+0) CHA 13 (+1)
Proficency Bonus: +2 Saves: STR +4, CON +4
SA: Duelist: +2 dmg with single one-handed weapon. Second Wind (bonus action): restore 1d10+1 hp, must rest to use again.
Background: Soldier
Equipment: chainmail, shield, longsword, light x-bow and 20 bolts, explorer's pack, red sash, dagger, bone dice, clothes, 10gp.
Attacks
Longsword ATT +5 dam 1d8+5
Light X-bow ATT +4 dam 1d8+2 rng 80'/320'

Human Rogue Level 1
AC 14 Speed 30'
Hit Points 10 Healing Dice 1 (d8+2)
STR 11 (+0) DEX 16 (+3) CON 14 (+2) INT 13 (+1) WIS 9 (-1) CHA 15 (+2)
Proficiency Bonus +2 Saves: DEX +5 INT +3
SA: Expertise - Persuasion (+6), Stealth (+7); Sneak Attack +1d6 1/turn; Thieves' Cant
Background: Charlatan
Equipment: 2 shortswords, burglar's pack, leather armour, two daggers, thieves' tools, fine clothes, disguise kit, set of sharped (marked) playing cards, belt pouch with 15gp
Attacks
2 Shortswords ATT +5 dam 1d6+3 & 1d6 (+1d6 sneak attack)
Thrown dagger ATT +5 dam 1d4+3 (+1d6 sneak attack) rng 20'/60'

Altanian Barbarian Level 1
AC 15 Speed 30'
Hit Points 14 Healing Dice 1 (d12+2)
STR 16 (+3) DEX 16 (+3) CON 14 (+2) INT 8 (-1) WIS 14 (+2) CHA 10 (0)
Proficiency Bonus: +2 Saves: STR +5 CON +4
SA: Rage bonus action 2/day, Unarmoured defence. Survival +6
Background: Outlander
Equipment: Greatsword, 2 hand axes, 4 javelins, hunting trap, hyena pelt, loincloth, belt & money pouch, explorer's pack, 10gp.
Attacks
Greatsword ATT +5 dam 2d6+3 (+5 raging)
Hand axes, melee ATT +5 dam 1d6+3(5), bonus action extra attack dam 1d6+0(2)
Javelins, thrown ATT +5 dam 1d6+3

Not vastly more complicated than the PCs in my BECM campaign:

Alexandra Vorloi, Armiger of House Vorloi, Lawful
Fighter-1 AC 18 (plate & shield) Hit Points 10
Sword ATT +1 dam 1d8+1
STR 15 (+1) INT 12 (+0) WIS 12 (+0) DEX 14 (+1) CON 16 (+2) CHA 13 (+1)
XP: 700/2000

Bramble Hairy-Heals of the Five Shires, Lawful
Halfling-1 AC 15 (chainmail & shield) Hit Points 7
Shortsword ATT +0 dam 1d6, Sling +0 dam 1d4
STR 12 (+0) INT 14 (+1) WIS 13 (+1) DEX 11 (+0) CON 13 (+1) CHA 12 (+0)
XP: 700/2000

Ace Plz (Ruyven Kishida) of the Calarii Elves, Lawful
Elf-1 AC 14 (leather) Hit Points 7
2-handed Sword ATT +1 dam 1d10+1, Longbow ATT +2 dam 1d6
STR 13 (+1) INT 11 (+0) WIS 15 (+1) DEX 16 (+2) CON 13 (+1) CHA 16 (+2)
Spell Book: Read Magic Charm Person Magic Missile Sleep Light
XP: 700/4000

Yakov Dmitrov, Black Sheep of House Dmitrov, Neutral
Magic-User 1 AC 11 (unarmoured) Hit Points 4
STR 8 (-1) INT 11 (+0) WIS 16 (+2) DEX 13 (+1) CON 10 (+0) CHA 15 (+1)
Spell Book: Read Magic Charm Person Magic Missile Sleep Light
XP: 700/2500

Worship Karameikos of Rugalov, Lawful (Neutral tendency)
Cleric-3 AC 18 Hit Points 13
STR 14 (+1) INT 16 (+2) WIS 16 (+2) DEX 11 (+0) CON 6 (-1) CHA 13 (+1)
Age 14. Betrothed to Peace Dmitrov (age 15) M9 1019 AC.
E: Platemail & Shield, Holy Symbol of Law. Baron William's +1 ring of protection.
Silver 'stone' mace: ATT +1 dam 1d6+1
+1 Spear "The Spear of Rothgar" ATT +2 dam 1d6+2
SA: Turn Undead: T: Skeleton, Zombie. 7+: Ghoul
Spells/day: 2 1st
XP: 3000/6000

Claudia Morrigan
Thief-1 AC 15 hit points 4
ST 13 (+1) IN 10 (+0) WI 7 (-1) DE 18 (+3) CO 11 (+0) CH 14 (+1)
E: Thieves' Tools, Leather armour
2-handed sword ATT +1 dam 1d10+1, Short bow ATT +3 dam 1d6
XP 450/1200
 

Well, I do some of the things you suggest, eg use the optional Slow Healing rule, eliminate Background mechanical effects, effectively remove skills. I don't know why you think allowing multiclassing is desirable though. Mechanical heft?

Yeah, looks like you did a lot of it. Did you just remove cantrips altogether? As for MCing, I'd be happy to remove it, too -- how do your Halfling and Elf classes work? Did you also remove feats and ASIs?

Anyway, swap out the XP system and similarly take a knife to the monster rules, and in my opinion, you'll have a pretty old-school D&D (that doesn't look much like what most people think of as "5e"). I certainly like your approach, but it still seems a lot easier to just start with B/X in the first place.
 

S'mon

Legend
Yeah, looks like you did a lot of it. Did you just remove cantrips altogether? As for MCing, I'd be happy to remove it, too -- how do your Halfling and Elf classes work? Did you also remove feats and ASIs?

No feats at 1st level, I said players with rulebooks could take them at higher level, none have.

The later characters there such as the Elf are from my BECM Classic D&D game, compare them to the 5e Rogue Barbarian & Fighter pregen stats at the top.
5e PCs do grow in complexity but at start they're very simple.
 

Alphastream

Adventurer
The claim about market is just wrong - there isn't enough market size there to be the underpinning for an edition's goals. As to influence, fair enough. The article's claims are not supported.
 

Landifarne

First Post
The claim about market is just wrong - there isn't enough market size there to be the underpinning for an edition's goals. As to influence, fair enough. The article's claims are not supported.

Completely agree with this. How many people are running Old School games in the US...20,000? Multiply that by two or three and you get the player base.

How many copies of 5E have sold?
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Completely agree with this. How many people are running Old School games in the US...20,000? Multiply that by two or three and you get the player base.

How many copies of 5E have sold?
Not a really good comparison. Better to ask how many people are running 5e games, and go from there.

And I speak from personal experience: I've bought the 5e core books, starter box, and some other bits; but I'm still running old school modified 1e.

Lanefan
 

Alphastream

Adventurer
Not a really good comparison. Better to ask how many people are running 5e games, and go from there.
Just from organized play alone, the top RPGs blow away other RPGs and unsupported editions. There are thousands playing D&D 5E in stores across the US on Wednesdays alone, then the thousands playing at stores on weekends, the thousands playing at conventions... and this doesn't count all the home campaigns, the online play, the other store game nights, etc. As an example, in Portland we have a single store with about 50 people playing Encounters on Wednesdays. We have I think 7 other stores running the program as well. When I travel around the US for work, I usually have a choice of 2-4 stores where I can play Encounters, with each running 2-5 tables of play... all just on Wednesdays.

I love D&D's current edition, but I also love other RPGs and I'm a fan of diverse approaches to RPGs. I truly wish that our hobby strongly supported (and paid well for) the other RPGs and editions. From my discussions with various people in the RPG industry, I think the numbers of actual play for many RPGs and RPG segments are shockingly small.
 

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