D&D 4E Mike Mearls on how D&D 4E could have looked

OK on this "I would’ve much preferred the ability to adopt any role within the core 4 by giving players a big choice at level 1, an option that placed an overlay on every power you used or that gave you a new way to use them." Basically have Source Specific Powers and less class powers. But I think combining that with having BIG differing stances to dynamically switch role might be a better...

OK on this "I would’ve much preferred the ability to adopt any role within the core 4 by giving players a big choice at level 1, an option that placed an overlay on every power you used or that gave you a new way to use them."
Basically have Source Specific Powers and less class powers. But I think combining that with having BIG differing stances to dynamically switch role might be a better idea so that your hero can adjust role to circumstance. I have to defend this NPC right now vs I have to take down the big bad right now vs I have to do minion cleaning right now, I am inspiring allies in my interesting way, who need it right now.

and the obligatory
Argghhhh on this. " I wanted classes to have different power acquisition schedules"

And thematic differences seemed to have been carried fine.
 

Imaro

Legend
As a youth I thought that a generalized level which measured overall improvement in ability seemed odd, ie you learn in a fairly spikey way when you are learning basics and specialization is very culturally enforced throughout society. I have since found that confidence and the ability to adapt and apply general experience to an ever widening set of situations grows over time feels a very real thing even though not so spiky, hmmm.

I think that there are just some things no amount of drifting through life allows one to pick up... unless one makes an active effort to actually learn them... I wish 4e had general skills (these are things one can grow in through life experiences and are the purview of being a general adventurer) and then specialized skills (things you would need some type of formal study to understand and grow in knowledge for). Actually I am thinking about implementing something along these lines in my upcoming 5e game.
 

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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I think that there are just some things no amount of drifting through life allows one to pick up... unless one makes an active effort to actually learn them... I wish 4e had general skills (these are things one can grow in through life experiences and are the purview of being a general adventurer) and then specialized skills (things you would need some type of formal study to understand and grow in knowledge for). Actually I am thinking about implementing something along these lines in my upcoming 5e game.

There were actions within each of the very broad skill categories that one couldnt leverage without training including skill powers, practices and rituals which one couldnt use without the more specific training.
 

darkbard

Legend
There were actions within each of the very broad skill categories that one couldnt leverage without training including skill powers, practices and rituals which one couldnt use without the more specific training.

As well as Acrobatics and Arcana checks under circumstances that would require training (i.e., these two skills call out that some checks cannot be made untrained).
 

Imaro

Legend
There were actions within each of the very broad skill categories that one couldnt leverage without training including skill powers, practices and rituals which one couldnt use without the more specific training.

Hmmm interesting I never noticed that under the skills. Though I was aware that rituals and practices required training. Do you know of any examples offhand? I'm curious about where the line was drawn.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
OK one assertion I have been tracking down is that 4e style play can be leveraged in 5e. In fact probably wouldn't be participating in the conversation if that werent on the table.

I am aware of a number of things valuable for that.

1) allowing people to take a short rest by 4e standards simply by making a skill check of one form or another (it might be a survival one) or something else I know some who are not meticulous ;) just use 4e rules for both this and flanking.

You are allowing short rest types more in combat pop than those who rely on dailies. If classes who use Dailies actually are balanced in combat at low levels well I am not sure I want to mess with that. But if we make that check somewhat difficult? but fade out most of the time as you level up.

2) Using minions almost exactly like they are in 4e.

https://theangrygm.com/more-grist-for-the-mill-minion-groups-in-dd-5e/

Or 2a) ideas about using monster roles

https://rumorsofwarcomic.com/2015/09/rescuing-4e-monster-roles/

3) General competence for heros... it seems skill based resolution is now more uncertain than it was as you advance. I keep feeling bounded accuracy is fighting the flavor. And several like @Manbearcat think the problem of non-combat uber mages has been compounded. Is there a way to break this?

4) Using a healthy amount of magic items to up the zing of martial types in other tiers. (someone mentioned they thought the Adventurers League might have done this? ) might be a tool to address the fade of out of combat zing.

5) Monsters seem boring the Ogre presented looks like it might be an Ogre skirmisher with all the interesting bits torn off and left by the way side ... and yes I have heard a lot about pulling monster abilities forward into 5e too.

I definately advocate just copying 4e monster abilities into 5e to make 5e enemies interesting. 100%
 

pemerton

Legend
5E is narrative first in that a player declares an action, the DM decides the narrative difficulty, selects the DC based on that narrative difficulty and then adjudicates a check. The DC comes from the DMs narrative judgement entirely.
Can you say what you mean by "narrative"?

In most RPGs, the basic process of play is that a player declares an action which in some fashion engages the shared fiction, and then a check (or comparable resolution process) is established and undertaken. Common examples are things like "I poke the floor in front of me with my 10' pole" or "I raise my hand in a signal of peace to the goblins" or "I cast a fireball spell".

In many RPGs, there are some actions whose declation in the fiction more-or-less equates to performing a mechanical move in the game. In Gygax's AD&D, for instance, declaring "I listen at the door" enlivens a particular mechanical process (which contrasts with "I poke the floor in front of me with my 10' pole"). In 5e, declaring "I attack the goblin with my sword" or "I shoot the goblin with Magic Missiles" enlivens a particular mechanical process (the combat rules, and the casting rules, respectively). In most RPGs, there are also actions whose declaration enlivens no particular process; or envlivens a very generic process like "The referee determines the outcome" or "The referee will determine a throw that must be made." Moldvay Basic and Classic Traveller in particular have a lot of this.

4e's generic process is a bit less open-ended than Moldvay Basic and Classic Traveller: if the referee determines that a throw must be made, by default it will be made on a d20, will involve adding a stat or perhaps skill bonus, and will be against a DC selected from a DC-by-level chart. What makes it fiction first is that the mechanics establish an abstract structure (at this PC level the appropriate DC is such-and-such) but don't peg any particular fiction to that structure. The fiction is given elsewhere, prior to the mechanics. This is why you can do stuff with 4e that can't easily be done with Moldvay Basic, like compression the default paragon fiction into the mechanics of upper heroic (which the Neverwinter supplement did) or extending the default paragon ficition into the mechanics of epic (which is what the Dark Sun supplements did).

To me, 5e does not seem to present an abstract mathematical structure onto which prior fiction is then appeneded. It doesn't have the mechanisms that I associate with such a structure, which in 4e are the DC-by-level chart, the corresponding creature build charts, the notion of "minionisation", etc. And it seems to have the mechanisms that I associate with a pegging of particular fiction to particular mechanics, like creatures whose mechanical specification is constant across all levels, and DCs which seem to be presented as "objective" rather than "subjective" - which in this thread has been reinforced by the suggestion that the way you gate something against a 1st level PC is by setting the DC at 27: that's mechanics before fiction, not vice versa.

The game is agnostic as to what is narratively appropriate in a campaign.

<snip>

The narrative is determined by the DM and table, the rules follow.
By "narrative" here you seem to mean "genre" and other associated aspects of fiction (tone, tropes, etc). But that doesn't go to the question I am asking about adjudication. Again, and to reiterate, if the way you gate things against 1st level PCs is by setting DCs that are mechanically impossible foe them, that is mechanics first, not fiction first. The mechanics are determining the feasibility of that action declaration, not the fiction.

If the DM and table don't think a particular challenge would need to be rolled for by Konan the Kongqurer, then the book advises not asking for a roll. DM judgement.
That's not the example at issue, though. No one has suggested that the way in which 4e empowers upper level martial PCs is by allowing the GM to say "yes" without requiring a roll. The dicussion has been about the methodology for setting rolls, and in particular whether the DC set for Konan's player is the same as the DC set for the player of a 1st level fighter.

A DC 25 task is very hard for low-level characters to accomplish, but it becomes more reasonable after 10th level or so. A DC 30 check is nearly impossible for most low-level characters. A 20th-level character with proficiency and a relevant ability score of 20 still needs a 19 or 20 on the die roll to succeed at a task of this difficulty.
To me, this text appears to imply that DCs are "objecive" rather than "subjective" - mechanics first rather than fiction first in the sense I have set out in this post.

what can a 15th level fighter do that a 1st level can't... the answer being whatever the DM, informed by the fiction, decides.

In 5e it's clear that if there's no chance for an action to succeed then no roll should take place.
In 4e if there's no chance for an action to succeed then no roll should take place. That's not a very distinctive princple.

But as far as the GM decides, I'm asking what principles are expected to guide a GM in this respect. The main answer this thread has supplied is martial PCs can't do supernatural things. This has been reinforced by references to bounded accuracy, which imply that DCs are "objective" so that if the GM sets (say) a DC 20 for the 15th level PC then that is what the DC would be for a 1st level PC also.

Am I wrong? Are there actual play examples to be given where the action was judged impossible for a 1st level PC but DC 15 (and so definitely feasible) for a 15th level PC?
 

pemerton

Legend
the idea that a book is going to tell me that burned out shacks should have excellent doors because of the level of the characters is both boggling and repulsive to me.
Luckily no RPG book ever published has said that.

The 4e books says that (1) epic tier PCs should be interacting with stuff of great cosmological significance, and (2) that if that stuff invovles doors (eg the gate to Carceri, in my own 4e game) then those doors will be some of the hardest to get through that exist in the cosmos.

It doesn't say much about burned out shacks, but it does imply that (1) for epic tier PCs, burned out shacks typically won't loom large on the list of challenges, and (2) if an epic tier PC has to get through the door of a burned out shack, that won't be very hard and probably won't require a check. It will be mere colour.

If, in fact, you play a 4e game in which epic tier PCs come to burned out shacks and you (i) want that the door of said shack to matter in play and yet (ii) don't want to break verisimilitude, then you're stuck. Now personally I think you're stuck in AD&D too - no party of 15th level AD&D PCs that I can conceive of is going to have a verisimilitudinous burned-out-shack-door matter in play (and I've never seen a module written for high level PCs which used a burned out shack door as an important obstacle).

Likewise in 3E - a 15th level fighter will have the STR to trivialise the door of a burned out shack, a 15 level rogue the skills, and a 15h level caster the spells.

But if you solved this problem in AD&D and 3E, and found some way to make doors of burned out shacks both matter in play and yet versimilitudinously flimsy, then maybe the same solution would

pemerton said:
Notice that the PC in the example is 8th level fighting an ogre. The fiction is built into the example.
28th level PCs don't fight ogres in chandelier-hung halls (as a general rule).
Completely irrelevant. If the rogue had been trying to swing from the exact same chandelier at a L25 fighter half-demon ogre, the relevant portion of the example would not have changed.
Two things.

(1) As [MENTION=12749]MwaO[/MENTION] has pointed out (if I've understood properly), the DC for the swing is to make a successful combat move, not to practice your acrobatics. Using your acrobatic trickery to make a successful move against Orcus is harder than it is against an ogre.

(2) I think you've missed the larger point. 4e is built on the assumption that the rogue won't be swinging from the same chandelier. The very clear advice on the tiers of play - found both in the PHB (addressed to players) and the DMG (addresed to GMs) - includes the idea that, as PCs progress through the tiers, so the locations where they engage in dramatic deeds also change.

A GM who set out to use the door of a burned out shack as a challenge for a demigod; who frames demigods into chandelier-laden challenges against ogres; who has the braziers in Orcus's throne room no different from those in the chieftain's longhall (as opposed to, say, demon skulls filled with darkfire that inflicts both necrotic and fire damage), etc, is disregarding the advice. It won't necessarily break the game, but it will require reworking the fiction - because the default (as presented in the PHB and the MMs) follows the advice on the tiers of play.
 

BryonD

Hero
Luckily no RPG book ever published has said that.
So far so good.

The 4e books says that (1) epic tier PCs should be interacting with stuff of great cosmological significance, and (2) that if that stuff invovles doors (eg the gate to Carceri, in my own 4e game) then those doors will be some of the hardest to get through that exist in the cosmos.
well that was good while it lasted.

It doesn't say much about burned out shacks, but it does imply that (1) for epic tier PCs, burned out shacks typically won't loom large on the list of challenges, and (2) if an epic tier PC has to get through the door of a burned out shack, that won't be very hard and probably won't require a check. It will be mere colour.

If, in fact, you play a 4e game in which epic tier PCs come to burned out shacks and you (i) want that the door of said shack to matter in play and yet (ii) don't want to break verisimilitude, then you're stuck. Now personally I think you're stuck in AD&D too - no party of 15th level AD&D PCs that I can conceive of is going to have a verisimilitudinous burned-out-shack-door matter in play (and I've never seen a module written for high level PCs which used a burned out shack door as an important obstacle).
But you are moving the goalposts here. I certainly run game where high levels characters routinely revisit places they have been when they were much lower level. The setting is still the same setting. I find it bothersome that this seems not only unlikely, but undesirable. They certainly go to fantastic and challenging places. But they also find high challenges coming to them.

Go back and read the posts being made when I joined this thread. I have not said that the burned out shack or its doors *should* be a challenge. But it is perfectly ok to be fighting a serious challenge in the vicinity of a door which remains trivial. To me this is beneath comment. But you have expressly stated that this isn't the way you do it. And the 4E DMG RAW supports you. Therefore I am expressing opposition to that approach.

Two things.

(1) As [MENTION=12749]MwaO[/MENTION] has pointed out (if I've understood properly), the DC for the swing is to make a successful combat move, not to practice your acrobatics. Using your acrobatic trickery to make a successful move against Orcus is harder than it is against an ogre.
Asked and answered.
There are three rolls. Roll 1 and 3 are in absolute and clear terms stated as a function of the character. The check to "get a hold and swing to" (monster X) is a function of character level. It pays zero attention to what (Monster x) is. Roll 2 is the kicking of (monster x) and it is against the Fort of that monster. This is where Orcus would be harder than the ogre. They wrote that very clearly. If they meant for the monster to be part of roll #1 then they would obviously have used the same language. They didn't. They used the character level because they intended it that way.

(2) I think you've missed the larger point. 4e is built on the assumption that the rogue won't be swinging from the same chandelier. The very clear advice on the tiers of play - found both in the PHB (addressed to players) and the DMG (addresed to GMs) - includes the idea that, as PCs progress through the tiers, so the locations where they engage in dramatic deeds also change.
OK, so 4E is now funneling my options. I choose to play a game that doesn't do this.

And, again *you* are missing the larger point. The "larger point" is the 4E that could have been. There is one big elephant in the room here of why 4E alienated people. I don't care that you love playing your game your way. That is no issues to me and wonderful that you have that option. There are reasons to reject this play and a game which was more open-minded about varying play styles could have been much more successful.
 

pemerton

Legend
4E was an interesting experiment, with some solid ideas. Thinking about why it didn't ultimately work is fruitful
4e works very well as an RPG, with one major exception and one other point of complexity.

Major exception: the scaling for combat numbers is different from the scaling for out-of-combat number (roughly +1 per level vs +0.7 per level). At heroic tier this can mostly be ignored, but as levels grow its effect on the maths becomes more evident. It means that you can't have truly universal resolution (eg Intimidate vs Will, Acrobatics vs Reflect, to-hit vs a skill challenge DDC, etc) without the maths breaking down. Fixing this would require reworking the maths of one or both systems, which would be hard, so it's something that I fudge over in play.

Point of complexity: 4e combat resolution is very concrete (mapped terrain, detalied position tracking, etc). But 4e non-combat is very abstract (skill challenges). This can cause ajdudicative challenges at the point of interface. As I think [MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION] has noted in this thread, it also puts some hard limits on the gonzo eg epic fighters can't easily leap to the moon, because their exploits also have to fit on a battle map tracked in 5' squares.​

So anyway, to say that "4e didn't work" is simply to say that it was not as commercially successful as WotC hoped. That's not primarily an inquiry into RPG design but into (i) RPG marketing and (ii) what is popular in RPGing.

I have my own views on why 4e was not popular, informed mostly by what I read on the interwebs. (1) Many RPGers don't like closed scene resolution and other forms of abstraction, other than hit points as a weird exception. (2) Many RPGers treat resource management and related puzzle solving as the main focus of play, whereas 4e tends to subordinate this in certain respects. (3) Many RPGers prefer much tighter GM control of outcomes than 4e defaults to.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Hmmm interesting I never noticed that under the skills. Though I was aware that rituals and practices required training. Do you know of any examples offhand? I'm curious about where the line was drawn.

The first incarnation of actions not performed without training was in the phb (it was fairly limited with two explicitly defined - I suspect the plan might have been to have more for other skills ), however once they decided a little later to implement special abilities whose access were governed by being trained they made them utilities accessible regardless of class (rather like rituals really have skill limits instead of class limits).

Skill Powers (Utility Powers that can only be learned by those Trained ) there are level 2, level 6 and 10 and 16, 22 etc

A generalized statement about what some of the level 2 ones did might be took limits described under the normal skill use and ditched them for specific uses once an encounter. (there were at-will ones and daily ones too though) AND some were very impressive things like the Endurance Skill Power - Endure Pain : damage resistance, others were relatively mundane like ensuring you never fail certain athletic checks by enough as to cause major problems (Talented Athletics). There is also one for Endurance that lets you turn a Healing surge into as many extra saving throws as you have effects to overcome. Or enable others to be Inspired and gain temp hit points by your Second Wind. I think endurance got nice ones actually.

At level 6 there is a perception one that allows you to give an ally a boost on their attack which is about to miss (you notice the ally was going to miss and grant them guidence on their attack) .

A perception one that basically makes you un-supriseable (undoing surprise) once per day.

The above are a few from the level 2 and level 6 ones.
 
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