D&D 5E Can a PC perform a miracle with a stat/skill check?

pemerton

Legend
I'm not sure I'd like that as a player, and I probably wouldn't personally do that in DM, in 4e, or any other D&D version.

For me, one of the big issues with that is: If any character can use a Religion check to pray for a miracle, why would they do anything else?
Because they want more reliability, or less chance of blowback?

Using improvised skills is constrained by p 42 and allied considerations.

the sense that one "gets better" about wishing for miracles is a fairly counter-intuitive one
Yet clerics have been built around this very idea since day one.

For completeness, here is a skill description from the Rules Compendium, p 136: "Improvising with Arcana - control a phenomenon by manipulating its magical energy (Hard DC)".

Now that came out in the latter part of 2010, and my memory of the first miracle using Religion (namely, saying a prayer to the Raven Queen to get combat advantage fighting a wight which was a former magic-user prisoner killed and then reanimated by necrotic forces) is at 2nd level, which would be around March 2009. So it's not as if I need the validation of the RC: I just point to it to show that I'm not the only one who had this sort of idea about the relationship between Arcana, Religion and p 42.
 

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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
I think the question then becomes, on what basis ought the GM to form a view that an approach completes the task with certainty, or alternatively may or may not complete the task?

Whatever best serves the goals of play at that moment. The default ones given to us on page 2 of the Basic Rules, paraphrased, are to have a good time and to create an exciting, memorable story as a result of play.
 

Mallus

Legend
For me, one of the big issues with that is: If any character can use a Religion check to pray for a miracle, why would they do anything else?
See, this is a non-issue for me. Most prayers go answered, ie the player doesn't even get to roll.

Allowing a player to attempt an exceptional action at a specific time doesn't imply they can continue to make similar attempts whenever they wish. Or rather, they can try when they like, but there will only be a chance for success when I like.

Or, another way, a ruling doesn't make a house rule.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Because they want more reliability, or less chance of blowback?

Using improvised skills is constrained by p 42 and allied considerations.

There's been no mention thus far that praying for a miracle is at a higher DC, or has more dire consequences, than, say, performing a Heal check would be. A binary can you/can't you distinction has been the only one made so far. You'd agree that there's no reason not to pray for a miracle if it is mechanically and functionally identical to making some other skill check?

An improvised skill may be constrained by Page 42, but if any skill is capable of achieving those results, then what skill one uses is only an issue of narration, without much mechanical distinction. That wouldn't be enjoyable for me.

Yet clerics have been built around this very idea since day one.

Not really. "Cleric" in D&D is a character archetype, not a particular skill. A character grows in power, fame, renown, honor, ability, etc., etc., as they gain levels, because their character develops through their played experience adding history and context to the character. This may come from many kinds of skills and abilities and adventures and interactions, all driving the archetype itself to become more defined and pointing to greater things this character as accomplished. The difference between cure light wounds and resurrection isn't that a cleric "gets better at praying for miracles," it's that they are becoming a greater force in the world as they advance.

Or, to put it another way, the reason a low-level cleric can't cast resurrection isn't because they lack the ability to request it, it is because the gods grant that request only to those who have honored them and have accomplished great things in their name (ie, they've completed adventures and gained XP). A skill changes that dynamic, because a skill is one particular activity that you roll against a DC to accomplish successfully.

For completeness, here is a skill description from the Rules Compendium, p 136: "Improvising with Arcana - control a phenomenon by manipulating its magical energy (Hard DC)".

Now that came out in the latter part of 2010, and my memory of the first miracle using Religion (namely, saying a prayer to the Raven Queen to get combat advantage fighting a wight which was a former magic-user prisoner killed and then reanimated by necrotic forces) is at 2nd level, which would be around March 2009. So it's not as if I need the validation of the RC: I just point to it to show that I'm not the only one who had this sort of idea about the relationship between Arcana, Religion and p 42.

I don't think I'm disputing any of that, I'm simply saying that I don't think this relationship produces especially satisfying gameplay for me. I want the choice of which skills your character has to be a meaningful and nuanced choice that produces different effects in play. "Pray for a miracle" as a skill hinders that goal in a number of ways.

shidaku said:
So shooting a magic missile with your int score is basically using your arcana skill to shoot magic missile. The difference between "paying for a miracle" or "doing magic" using your skills and using, in 4th's case, a power or spell is that the codified spell is, or can be thought of, praying for a specific miracle that your god has set out certain parameters for you to be able to achieve. Want to shoot a bolt of holy energy into your enemy's face? D20+stat vs enemy defenses. Want to bring your friend back from death? Well that's a little bit more subjective.

This works well enough for wizards and clerics but starts to fall down a bit when you consider the fact that power sources and ability scores aren't really married. Like, if blasting magic is a function of Arcana, why do Sorcerers do it with Cha? And there are defined ways to bring your friend back from the dead, too. Point basically taken, though.

That point does lead me to question more deeply (and not for the first time!) 4e's desire to push attack powers and not just go with a simpler "Page 42 System," but that's probably a broader issue. :)

shidaku said:
Sure, but that's a sign of bad DMing if a DM just lets you "do whatever" with "any skill". A good DM sets the bars on what you can, or cannot do with your skills and then tells you how high you have to jump in order to do what you want to do within those skills.

When the skill lets you wish for miracles or produce "magic" it's a bit hard to put that into a situation where you couldn't use it. That's kind of the thing about a miracle - they have no constraints.

shidaku said:
You can certainly "get better" at praying, just as you can "get better" at doing anything.

That's certainly a concept at odds with most religious tradition that most players of D&D are coming from and the stories they're familiar with. It's also at odds with the concept of a miracle -- your god can intercede in the world to save the dying, but can only do that if the praying person "does it right"?

shidaku said:
For those gods, it's a relatively simple process to become more favored with the god. Kill their foes. Help their friends. Follow their rules and laws.

That's not you getting better at praying, that's you gaining levels. Which implies that a high Wisdom shouldn't help you gain success here, and that it shouldn't be something you can "train" or "have proficiency in." Which is all well and good, but that means getting a miracle shouldn't be a Religion skill check. Perhaps a straight level check? But then any character could do it. Or a defined theme power or somesuch? But then we're closing off the option from those who didn't take the right character construction choice, and that doesn't seem in keeping with miracles, either...

shidaku said:
I do think a little creative thinking with skills goes a long way in this looser edition.

I think you're right (I think this is true about both 4e and 5e), but I think one of the things I appreciate about 5e is that there is significantly less incentive to have a "Do Anything" skill. Because of bounded accuracy, not training a skill doesn't mean you can't hit the DC's, and because of adventure focus rather than encounter focus, there's less pressure to make every skill relevant in all situations. It's OK if Religion isn't useful in helping a dying villager, and it's OK if you have to make a Medicine check without proficiency. Doing that in 4e felt against the "let everyone be useful" philosophy.

Mallus said:
Allowing a player to attempt an exceptional action at a specific time doesn't imply they can continue to make similar attempts whenever they wish. Or rather, they can try when they like, but there will only be a chance for success when I like.

IMXP, that's just inviting some D&D-style pixel-bitching. "Why not now? What's different? What's changed? Isn't this really the same? You let me do it last time."

I don't want convos like that to bog down my game. Which is why I went on about context up above: it might happen under certain circumstances, and in those circumstances, I probably don't have to roll anything.
 
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Bawylie

A very OK person
A low level cleric certainly can cast resurrection by praying for intercession - and hopefully that prayer is answered. At higher levels that cleric is entitled to that power and no longer has to request intercession.

I'm thinking literarily here. Galahad could routinely perform miracles because he was sinless and had perfect faith. Meanwhile, the few that his father Lancelot performed were done so only after fervent prayers for the saving of others and specifically not for his own glory. Basically God grants Lancelot's miracles despite his unworthiness - and grants Galahad's bc of his worthiness. IMO clerics, Paladins, & adherents work the same way. Anyone can ask - few are entitled. Lack of standing doesn't invalidate the prayer for intercession.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
When the skill lets you wish for miracles or produce "magic" it's a bit hard to put that into a situation where you couldn't use it. That's kind of the thing about a miracle - they have no constraints.
Well yes 'a miracle' could be anything, but really even though a miracle could be anything that doesn't mean it actually is. The world continues to turn, the sun rises, birds sing, trees rustle, wishing for the trees to rustle is only a miracle if some great evil has destroyed all the forests. Otherwise it's as mundane as being able to eat and breathe. Conceptually I don't think many people would have problems constraining 'miracles' to 'rare awesome things'.

That's certainly a concept at odds with most religious tradition that most players of D&D are coming from and the stories they're familiar with. It's also at odds with the concept of a miracle -- your god can intercede in the world to save the dying, but can only do that if the praying person "does it right"?
Really? I don't see that at odds with any religious tradition past or present. In Abrahamic religions, God always favors those who are more pious. In Classical religions, the gods favor those who make them happy. In Eastern religions, the gods favor those who more closely adhere to the rules and traditions of the religion. People who are more pious, people who practice making the gods happy, people who learn and follow the rules become better at doing those things and thusly better at gaining their deity's favor.

That's not you getting better at praying, that's you gaining levels. Which implies that a high Wisdom shouldn't help you gain success here, and that it shouldn't be something you can "train" or "have proficiency in." Which is all well and good, but that means getting a miracle shouldn't be a Religion skill check. Perhaps a straight level check? But then any character could do it. Or a defined theme power or somesuch? But then we're closing off the option from those who didn't take the right character construction choice, and that doesn't seem in keeping with miracles, either...
D&D gods are something of a mix between various religions around the world and throughout history, but generally speaking from reading their bios and the books they're involved in, they tend to favor people who do all the things described above: people who adhere to their rules, people who do things to make them happy, and people who are true-hearted in the way they follow the god.

Anyone can pray for miracles IMO. A cleric might simply be better at praying to the God of Puppies than the fighter, even if they worship the same god, simply because the cleric's life has been spent studying the holy ways, while a fighter, pious as they may be, has not dedicated themselves to such study. The Cleric simply knows the correct songs and dances and how to perform them, while the fighter might be more familiar with the lay rituals.

As I've said before, I conceive of miracles as great things. They're not something someone should be able to power-build to perform. I would account for not only class, but the actions and attitudes the player trying to perform the miracle has taken throughout the game. Just because you follow a righteous cause, doesn't mean you're a righteous person and I think that as the DM it is my responsibility to ensure the deity accounts for that (if it matters to that deity).

I think you're right (I think this is true about both 4e and 5e), but I think one of the things I appreciate about 5e is that there is significantly less incentive to have a "Do Anything" skill. Because of bounded accuracy, not training a skill doesn't mean you can't hit the DC's, and because of adventure focus rather than encounter focus, there's less pressure to make every skill relevant in all situations. It's OK if Religion isn't useful in helping a dying villager, and it's OK if you have to make a Medicine check without proficiency. Doing that in 4e felt against the "let everyone be useful" philosophy.
Which as I said, is why I would account for more than just in-game statistics on such a request. The honorable, generous, kind fighter who prays regularly and gives tribute may end up far more successful at praying for a miracle than the guy who wears white robes and throws holy water at the bad guys.
 
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pemerton

Legend
There's been no mention thus far that praying for a miracle is at a higher DC, or has more dire consequences, than, say, performing a Heal check would be. A binary can you/can't you distinction has been the only one made so far. You'd agree that there's no reason not to pray for a miracle if it is mechanically and functionally identical to making some other skill check?
Not much has been said about how stakes might be set and resolved. When I ask whether a stat check (with or without a proficiency bonus from a skill) can be used to do something, I'm assuming that the general framework for setting stakes and adjudicating consequences will be in play.

Page 58 of the Basic PDF say, in relation to a stat check, that if "it’s a failure . . . the character or monster makes no progress toward the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the DM." Although it's not explicitly stated, I assume that the 5e stat check mechanics also permit the GM to impose a setback without progress if the stakes of the check have been framed in such terms.

In the context of a prayer for a miracle, setbacks would include contacting the wrong god, or having one's own god visit wrath upon the character for hubris, or (one I use a bit) having the character suffer psychic damage as the attempt to make contact with the divine proves more than his/her brain can handle.

An improvised skill may be constrained by Page 42, but if any skill is capable of achieving those results, then what skill one uses is only an issue of narration, without much mechanical distinction.
I don't see why you say that any skill can achieve "those results" - whatever exactly "those results" might be. Narration is not a negligible constraint, particularly when combined with a relatively robust sense of genre shared around the table. This is an important component of how "free descriptor" systems work - which is one way of playing 4e's skill system, and I imagine is one way of playing 5e's check system.

the reason a low-level cleric can't cast resurrection isn't because they lack the ability to request it, it is because the gods grant that request only to those who have honored them and have accomplished great things in their name (ie, they've completed adventures and gained XP). A skill changes that dynamic, because a skill is one particular activity that you roll against a DC to accomplish successfully.
This strikes me as a contentious characterisation of skills - not in the sense of being wrong, but of being only one of multiple ways of approaching skills.

Many 4e players who post on these boards, for instance, don't approach 4e skills in the terms you describe - they treat them as they would "free descriptors" in a system like FATE, Marvel Heroic RP or HeroWars/Quest. Because 5e doesn't even have skills in the 4e sense, but pushes more in the direction of 13th Age towards explicity free descriptors, it seems to me that it lends itself even more to that sort of approach if the table wants to play it that way.

There is certainly no reason why the question of what can be accomplished with a skill or a stat check can't be answered, in part, by reference to the same things you mention for the cleric - honour, renown, prowess etc. I think this is the default 4e approach - and if not the default, it's certainly how I and some (perhaps many) others run it.

IMXP, that's just inviting some D&D-style pixel-bitching. "Why not now? What's different? What's changed? Isn't this really the same? You let me do it last time."

I don't want convos like that to bog down my game.
My experience is different from yours (and perhaps closer to [MENTION=3887]Mallus[/MENTION]'s). If the players know the sort of systems they're playing, and how the GM is approaching adjudication, they will recognise that not every moment is one in which every option is feasible. As far as the fiction is concerned, it's as easy as saying "The gods ignore your pleas. You'll have to find another way."

In 4e terms, this is the GM enforcing, in an informal way, 1x/enc and 1x/day limitations. Or "no more than once per challenge" limitations on skill use in a skill challenge. 5e has similar, if not identical, notions of rationing ability use across sequences of play.
 

I'm not going to have time to tackle everything here. I was really, really, really wanting to just focus like a laser beam on the design ethos and nature of various approaches to DCs and the GM's related usage of them in play. Please understand that every word of what I wrote above about GMing and system is directly in relation to that and that alone. It has nothing to do with techniques that follow from resolution procedures nor does it have to do with the GMing principles that underwrite those techniques. GMs will have a top-down agenda and principles and techniques for various component parts of play. I was trying to just dig down on this very specific component part of system, what it naturally presupposes, and in what direction it pushes play toward.

With that said, I want to try to quickly address the lines of evidence that have drawn me toward the conclusion that 5e's ability check system is predicated on DCs and actions expected to be declared that are a direct expressions of phenomenon and what is objectively happening in the gameworld. Hence, they are attempting to model process. @pemerton did a good job just upthread of outlining a few of the larger lines of evidence already. I'm going to go there and elsewhere to elaborate. @billd91 and [MENTION=43019]keterys[/MENTION] have good posts contrasting objective/subjective although I don't agree with all of bill's conclusions. I think the nuance has a pretty dynamic effect on play as it directly feeds into other aspects of play and component parts of system (of which I'm going to stay away from breaking down for just a moment as I want to focus this post).

First and foremost, several things that Mearls said about 5e's design ethos in articles during development were insightful:

1) Advocacy for "natural language" versus "metagame language/jargon" in the rules' text.

2) The "Narrative Cohesion" mini-essay which was sort of a kinder/friendlier version of the Alexandrian's Dissociated Mechanics essay.

3) Bounded Accuracy allowing for GMs and players to be able to "associate DC values with in-world difficulties."

Both 1 and 2 push my perception that 5e aims to (a) hide/obscure the metagame and (b) present the game-world's phenomenon (as understood by the 1st person perspective of characters within it) as tighty coupled to the game's mechanics. They're primary agenda is for "the feel" of the rulebooks and that the process of player action declaration be functionally governed by 1st person PC inhabitation with little or no regard for metagame concerns nor any player stance (perspective) fluctuation. That requires a process simulation foundation for noncombat action declaration. Which is 3 above.

In no particular order, here are the articles in question:

Per Mike Mearls WotC Legend and Lore columns

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120604

Bounded accuracy makes it easier to DM and easier to adjudicate improvised scenes. After a short period of DMing, DMs should gain a clear sense of how to assign DCs to various tasks. If the DM knows that for most characters a DC of 15 is a mildly difficult check, then the DM starts to associate DC values with in-world difficulties. Thus, when it comes time to improvise, a link has been created between the difficulty of the challenge in the world (balancing as you run across this rickety bridge is pretty tough due to the breaking planks, especially if you're not a nimble character) and the target number. Since those target numbers don't change, the longer a DM runs his or her game, the easier it is going to be to set quick target numbers, improvise monster attack bonuses and AC, or determine just what kind of bonus a skilled NPC has to a particular check. The DM's understanding of how difficult tasks are ceases to be a moving target under a bounded accuracy system.




http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120709

Many DMs prefer to keep things at the story level. They don't want game constructs-things that explain or frame mechanics but don't appear within the game world-to stand at the forefront. They want to approach the world as a fictional place, where things work the way they do because of elements that arise from the setting rather than the rules. The evil duke sends twenty orcs to ambush the characters because he has twenty orcs on hand, not because twenty is the "correct" number to challenge the party by the encounter-building guidelines. If the characters are powerful enough, they might wipe the floor with the orcs. If they are weaker, they might have to flee or surrender if they want to live.




http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20131216

Choices and Consequences

Feel shines through when you ask someone to make a decision. The distinctions between possible choices should resonate with both the player and the character. Your character-working from knowledge of the game world-and you-working from knowledge of both the world and the rules-should weigh the same factors, benefits, drawbacks, and risks as you come to a decision.

Weapons and armor provide an easy example. A greatsword lets you hit harder, but the longsword allows you to use a shield and improve your defense. You as the player and you as the character approach this choice with the same basic criteria and expected outcomes. Your character knows that a shield helps deflect attacks. You know that a shield is worth +2 to AC. Those two things mean the same thing. The mechanics are merely expressions of what happens in the game world.

Matching choices and consequences to run in parallel for players and characters is the most fundamental tool a designer can bring to bear in bringing a game's feel to life.


Narrative Cohesion

Narrative cohesion explains how you and your character can think of a situation in the same way, even if you're thinking of the game's rules and your character can only understand the description of the situation in "real" terms. Narrative cohesion works best when it strikes a middle ground between providing enough detail to explain a situation and leaving enough room for the abstraction necessary to produce a fast, easy-to-use set of rules.

Then, of course, you have the p58 rules for noncombat action resolution. Specifically, I'm referring to the ability check rules. The DCs are static and the do not change throughout the course of play. Easy, Hard, Nearly Impossible are objective terms for these static DCs that are unchanging throughout the course of play. Meanwhile, characters progress throughout the course of play and these DCs, mathematically, change in status for the player characters themselves (hard tasks become medium or easy, for example). Therefore, its impossible to say that these DCs are associated with the PCs (therefore subjective). Obviously, given all of the evidence above, they must be associated with tasks by an in-world estimation (objective). Furthermore, given the "natural language" angle that they've explicitly worked toward in their writing, it makes no sense for these very important DCs to suddenly eschew that approach and therefore be metagame-based, subjective DCs.

Finally, I look at the, again, "natural language" of the ability scores themselves and what they represent. All of the physical ability checks (Str, Dex, Con) use the "natural language" stating what the ability checks "can model" while the mental/intangible/social checks use the language "relect aptitude in." If they're using natural language, you don't use the terminology "can model" and "reflect aptitude in" without the implication being that the deployment of one of these abilities connotes a simulation of causal process in the game world. Otherwise, the language is anything but "natural."


So there is where I'm coming from on this very specific issue. I'll go further with my next post and talk about other stuff including the nuanced impact of subjective DCs in play (specifically how they promote cinematic, closed-scene based play, with hard action scenes + hard transitions, and can be adversarial to serial exploration play solely from 1st person perspective). I'll try to go further down the line into actual conflict resolution mechanics and contrast them with task resolution mechanics (and the varying GM principles that underwrite the play procedures of each). I think at that point I can probably address some other questions/protests that extrapolate more than I had intended in that first post about objective versus subjective DCs.

[sblock]My posting is unfortunately going to be difficult to be in-line any regularity. I spend the vast majority of my non-work time caring for a family member who needs "total care". My posting frequency, and surely my coherency of posting, has seen a steep downward trajectory as this has progressed. If I don't respond immediately or I don't respond to everyone, I apologize. I promise it isn't intentional disregard or disrespect. Its just extremely limited time and finite brain capacity augmented by increasing sleep deprivation.[/sblock]
 

Ok, I've got a few moments here.

@Sadras, I'm going to try to address your questions/disagreements/requests for clarification in the coming days, but I'm not sure if I can get them all. However, I feel that in order to do so, I need to come at this conceptually first.

What is the difference between conflict resolution and task resolution?

The primary interest of conflict resolution is the "why?" rather than the "how?" Its about persons/things who have conflicting agendas/interests and the outcomes, uncertain until resolution is cemented, that may arise from their clashing. The stakes of any given conflict, the framing of the situation at the outset, and the evolving drama are centered around that premise. Conflict resolution mechanics (and the GM principles that inform and bind framing, reframing, and denouement) are at their best when they heed each of these facets, drive and focus play toward conflict (specifically the conflict that the PCs care about), and help the GM escalate and maintain momentum until the situation has been resolved (win/loss condition met and the fictional reward/fallout realized).

MHRP and 4e actually have a lot of similarities in their conflict resolution mechanics. Let us say you have a Complexity 3 Skill Challenge in 4e. Mechanically, that means:

* 8 primary skill successes (in effect, the group's adversary's HPs or stress track) before 3 primary skill failures (in effect, the group's HPs or stress track). Win/Loss condition.

* 3 secondary skills (almost exclusively at the easy DC) usages available. These serve as augments to primary checks (or a setback/complication if you fail them).

* 2 advantages available. These serve exclusively as player fiat. They let you do stuff like step a DC down one (eg from hard to medium).

* 6 medium DCs to be met and 2 hard DCs to be met.

MHRP has protagonist and antagonist stress dice (once you reach the value, the party is "stressed out"). It has something called Plot Points which let PCs add dice to their pool from various things internal (personal distinctions, abilities, etc) and external (scene elements, etc). It also has something called the "Doom Pool" which is a latent pool of dice that the GM pulls from to escalate the conflict, level of danger, and dramatic potency of the moment. Secondary skills and advantages are akin to MHRP Plot Points. The GM's hard DCs are effectively the 4e version of the Doom Pool. The only thing really missing (and this is most unfortunate as its a strength of MHRP conflict resolution and a weakness of 4e) is the feedback loop between player dice deployed, related opportunities (when player rolls a 1) activated by the GM, and subsequent fueling the growth of the GM Doom Pool and the player Plot Point pool (GM gives player a plot point to add a d6 to the pool or "step up" an existing die - eg d6 > d8).

Procedurally and GM-principle-wise, you're doing pretty much the same things:

1) Establish what is at stake within the fiction. "Why" are you doing this in the first place? To prevent x from happening or allow y to happen. If the win condition is met, the fictional reward is realized. If the loss condition is met, the fictional reward is denied/not realized and whatever fallout/setback from its lack of realization accrues.

2) The GM's job is to set the scene, frame the PCs right into the conflict, evolve/escalate the fiction and maintain dramatic momentum (while always keeping 1 in mind as the reference point), and play the adversarial elements, that interpose themselves between the PCs and their goals, to the hilt. This is done all the while playing by the rules, observing macro-agenda, and micro-principles.

3) Close out the scene and climax with a fitting denoument that leads naturally into follow-on conflicts that arise from the outcome.



Alright. How do subjective/metagame-based DCs aid this process? When focusing on the "why" (rather than the "how") and being primarily concerned with always attaining dramatic outcomes, the math needs to be your partner...not your adversary. If the DCs are equilibrated to PC competency throughout the course of play (such that percentage success/failure for the Easy/Medium/Hard DC remains failry consistent), then you ensure that (GM-side) expectant outcomes are attained. Therefore, the GM can consistently put the precise amount of (mechanical...which then yields dramatic) pressure on the situation that they are looking for. And with focusing on the "why", the DCs will be representing several things at once:

1) Genre-consistent, game-world "stuff" based on the PC's status (eg if its related to climbing a mountain, the adversarial component is going to be something vastly more ominous, trying, and fantastical in the epic tier relative to the heroic tier).

2) Dramatic need at the metagame level for GM-use in maintenance/escalation (while observing rules, macro-agenda, micro-principles).

3) In-fiction urgency and/or momentum (either for or against the PCs) relative to the stakes.



Now that I've got that stuff written, I'll work on answering specific questions/protests (trying to use most of the above as reference points) in the coming days.
 
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Sadras

Legend
Thanks @Manbearcat, no pressure or worries about the timeframe of your replies.

If I'm understanding you clearly from your post, when you speak of adding tension/drama it is mostly because of the the subjective use of the skill DC.

Therefore, the GM can consistently put the precise amount of (mechanical...which then yields dramatic) pressure on the situation that they are looking for.

In 5e, the higher one's level, the easier the easy/medium/hard tasks become to the point where the DM allows one to auto-succeed in tasks which lack 'dramatic pressure' so to speak (mechanically chance of failure is low). So 5e similar to 4e one enters the paragon/epic tier where simple tasks are immediately ignored and only when tasks appropriate to one's power level can challenge one does one generally roll to ensure success, so there is always that 'dramatic pressure' and in that way higher DCs are set which are line with the in-game fiction which as you say in more cases than not, IMO, are objectively set.

So whether one uses a scaling system like in 4e or 5e's bounded accuracy, the DM always makes one roll in times of uncertainty or when failure is a real possibility as you say so as to ensure dramatic pressure exists through the mechanics.

I will add this however, over the course of 4e's lifespan either through published material as well as the general 4e community the mechanics behind the skill challenge became more sophisticated/mature which I find a shame was not directly included within the 5e core books. The system would have certainly been richer with an optional inclusion of the complexity skill challenge mechanics, IMO.

However, I do not agree with you that 'dramatic tension' is lessened because one uses the 5e mechanic instead of the 4e. There is no basis for that - to reiterate, as one rises in levels the challengers one faces are greater, stakes increase due to the in-game fiction and so the DCs for those remarkable tasks.

Example: the Jesters skill challenge of summoning Charon would not be performed by lower level PCs, the DCs in a skill challenge for such a task would always be at least 25+ therefore ensuring mechanics aid in the dramatic pressure.
 

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