It’s LAUNCH DAY For The Pathfinder 2 Playtest!

Parmandur · Aug 8, 2018

Aldarc said:
Your assessment would have been far more credible and your questions far more "relevant" if you did not feel obligated to insert your raging bias in the bold.

Appealing to people just like CapnZapp has to be Paizo's goal, though: people who play D&D but want something more intricate and involved than 5E. He is quite possibly their ideal potential customer.

houser2112 · Aug 8, 2018

Maxperson said:
Calling a feat a tax when it isn't, isn't.

I think you need to define "feat tax" then. I define it as "feat you have to take to get some other feat, that you wouldn't take on its own merits".

Again, this is no different than multiclassing in other games/editions to get what you want. You ended up with class features you didn't need or want in order to get the ones that you did. Having to get something you don't want when you pay a cost to get something you do want is not a tax.

It is quite different. I didn't have to multiclass to advance a fighting style in 3.PF. I could do it faster by multiclassing into fighter because fighter granted combat feats, but I could do it entirely with general feats if I so desired.

It can't qualify as a tax, because it's not required that you take it.

I don't understand this argument. If a non-fighter wants Point-Blank Shot, Double Shot, and Triple Shot, they have to take Fighter Dedication. "Tax?" may be a subjective argument, but "Prerequisite?" is not.

Reynard · Aug 8, 2018

Parmandur said:
Appealing to people just like CapnZapp has to be Paizo's goal, though: people who play D&D but want something more intricate and involved than 5E. He is quite possibly their ideal potential customer.

Only if folks like CapnZapp are willing to put their preconceived notions and biases aside and give the game a honest fair shot. It is likely a waste of Paizo's time, energy and marketing budget to try and pry people out of their own assertions.

Morrus · Aug 8, 2018

Parmandur said:
Appealing to people just like CapnZapp has to be Paizo's goal, though: people who play D&D but want something more intricate and involved than 5E. He is quite possibly their ideal potential customer.

I do kinda feel like “D&D Advanced” is the pitch which would appeal to me. I haven’t seen it yet (my preorder is yet to arrive, and I can’t read long PDFs) but it’s still my major anticipated game for that exact reason.

Reynard · Aug 8, 2018

Morrus said:
I do kinda feel like “D&D Advanced” is the pitch which would appeal to me. I haven’t seen it yet (my preorder is yet to arrive, and I can’t read long PDFs) but it’s still my major anticipated game for that exact reason.

I think a lot of folks would like that option. I don't think that is what PF2 is, however. It seems much more aimed at streamlining PF's complexity while maintaining its fiddliness appeal and baking in the setting lore more than PF1. Does that make it a Fantasy Heartbreaker? Possibly, though it would still be the largest and most successful one.

Aldarc · Aug 8, 2018

Parmandur said:
Appealing to people just like CapnZapp has to be Paizo's goal, though: people who play D&D but want something more intricate and involved than 5E. He is quite possibly their ideal potential customer.

Why and how so? It seems as if CapnZapp already has his pitch perfect game in 5e, with 1+ last thread on balancing it. His main criticism of Pathfinder 1 and Pathfinder 2 so far has been that it is not 5e. It's not criticizing that New Coke isn't Coke, but that New Coke isn't Cherry Pepsi. I'm skeptical that you can please that sort of customer or that these should be your target audience. If that customer is hellbent on wanting the other game to be 5e, then there is no point on making that game into 5e just to appease them when they already have 5e to play.

Morrus · Aug 8, 2018

Aldarc said:
Why and how so? It seems as if CapnZapp already has his pitch perfect game in 5e, with 1+ last thread on balancing it. His main criticism of Pathfinder 1 and Pathfinder 2 so far has been that it is not 5e. It's not criticizing that New Coke isn't Coke, but that New Coke isn't Cherry Pepsi. I'm skeptical that you can please that sort of customer or that these should be your target audience. If that customer is hellbent on wanting the other game to be 5e, then there is no point on making that game into 5e just to appease them when they already have 5e to play.

Oh, absolutely. If what you want is 5E, and your main criticism is that something isn’t 5E, Pathfinder isn’t for you.

Kurviak · Aug 8, 2018

CapnZapp said:
I am assuming Paizo is gunning for Pathfinder levels of success.

However - you could be right and I could be wrong. I guess Paizo could be content with a small slice of the pie.

They officially said they are not competing with wotc because that will be suicide for them

Parmandur · Aug 8, 2018

Aldarc said:
Why and how so? It seems as if CapnZapp already has his pitch perfect game in 5e, with 1+ last thread on balancing it. His main criticism of Pathfinder 1 and Pathfinder 2 so far has been that it is not 5e. It's not criticizing that New Coke isn't Coke, but that New Coke isn't Cherry Pepsi. I'm skeptical that you can please that sort of customer or that these should be your target audience. If that customer is hellbent on wanting the other game to be 5e, then there is no point on making that game into 5e just to appease them when they already have 5e to play.

You have apparently not seen many of his 5E posts: he has numerous, loudly shared criticisms of the system, and a crunchy alternative is what he has been asking for. Repeatedly.

Thinking that 5E is the current high watermark in the the RPG industry doesn't mean that he has some insurmountable bias, or that Paizo should discount him as a customer. Disgruntled D&D fans who want more crunch is how Paizo built their house. If they simultaneously alienate PF1 fans, and fail to attract 5E fans from the margins...to whom are they selling?

Parmandur · Aug 8, 2018

Morrus said:
Oh, absolutely. If what you want is 5E, and your main criticism is that something isn’t 5E, Pathfinder isn’t for you.

What CapnZapp has expressed a desire for isn't 5E, but a game incorporating the OGL lessons from 5E while providing a different, crunchier experience. This is something PF2 could have been.

It’s LAUNCH DAY For The Pathfinder 2 Playtest!

Parmandur

Book-Friend

houser2112

Explorer

Reynard

Legend

Morrus

Well, that was fun

Reynard

Legend

Aldarc

Legend

Morrus

Well, that was fun

Kurviak

Explorer

Parmandur

Book-Friend

Parmandur

Book-Friend

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