Getting to 6 encounters in a day

robus said:

Keeping things unpredictable is key which is why the default travel rules are so poor. 0 or 1 encounter is entirely too predictable

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Which is why I ignore random encounters on the road (maybe just narrate that there were some minor skirmishes), set up something challenging, or don't allow long rests during road trips because of the danger.

The point is that I never roll the dice, look at a chart and say "The random encounter is...". Maybe it is a random encounter. Or maybe it's a scouting party for the orcish army invading that they've heard about and they'll soon be fighting a war band, scrambling to save as many people as they can from the oncoming tide of orcs.

robus said:

Keeping things unpredictable is key which is why the default travel rules are so poor. 0 or 1 encounter is entirely too predictable

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Yes, I think 5e dropped the ball on overland travel. We just do it off screen unless there is some sort of chase or similar where the party can only take short rests and force march. That is rare.

All of the adventures I have played have done a great job of designing each chapter to fit in with the 6-8 encounter model. But their overland travel sections are tedious because they are 0-1.

Oofta said:

Which is why I ignore random encounters on the road (maybe just narrate that there were some minor skirmishes), set up something challenging, or don't allow long rests during road trips because of the danger.

The point is that I never roll the dice, look at a chart and say "The random encounter is...". Maybe it is a random encounter. Or maybe it's a scouting party for the orcish army invading that they've heard about and they'll soon be fighting a war band, scrambling to save as many people as they can from the oncoming tide of orcs.

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I love random encounters that all have something to do with the story. Published adventures are good for that. HotDQ and CoS both had good ones.

iserith said:

I've been saying for a while on the forums that you can do this by granting the PCs a cumulative XP bonus that increases with every encounter past a certain benchmark. The more they do in an adventuring day, the bigger the bonus gets.

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I threw together an "XP Multiplier" system (posted here) about a year and a half ago. Since I've been too busy IRL to game lately, I haven't actually put it to use. When I get behind the screen again, it's something I plan to revisit.

If I were to change one or two minor things off the top of my head, I likely wouldn't roll the multiplier until after the experience is tallied from the encounter (e.g. the first encounter always nets the party a base of 50% Standard XP, then the challenge multiplier is added to apply to the next encounter's XP value). I might also skew the default multipliers a bit lower, closer to the array I had mentioned in the last part of the FAQ.

Sunseeker said:

It doesn't work well for an open-world explory type game.

But yes, hanging a carrot out in front of them works too.

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Not true, at least for me.

I make sure to remind the returning players and to inform new ones, that in my open-world explorations (which is basicly a default mode for my games) time doesn’t stay in place and important staff will happen in it, regardless of PC involvement.

It requires having a the world to feel live, admitably. But this is not that hard to acheive*, IMO. Maybe my Storyteller systems background helps me here, idk. But I am pretty comfortable to have players play passively for a while and ignoring part of the story completely. More so - I strive to have enough stuff going on so that they have the luxury of making a choice which part of the story they want to prioritize and when see the results of their decision.

Here is my take on this issue:
Or How come I never have the OP issue in my games
Disclamer: IMO, YMMV.

I aim to have more Acting Parties when just the Adventuring Party. Lets call the former Figures to avoid the confusion. Preferrably more Figures that the PCs and BBEG and his goons. Figures are individuals, groups and organizations that have their own Goals. Figures plan and act towards their Goals. This makes the world move even if PCs just sit there in the tavern or take a 24 hours rest after each encounter. How - depends on the story and on the choices of the PCs. I try to make sure that the players are aware of the choice when they make it and they can feel the results of their choices and actions later.

First thing to make the world feel alive is to make the players see clearly the Cause and the Effect.
Example 1.
You focused on this quest, took calculated risks and made a few good calls - You intercepted vital intelligence/magic item/enemy reinforcements and now have the edge against the BBEG that you would have missed otherwise.
OR
You dragged and dragged and could not focus on doing any one single thing - Those other guys you’ve seen at the tavern three months ago have already looted the dungeon, time to look for a new adventure.

Example 2.
You choosed to ignore the Priests plea for help and rushed to the BBEG base - You have time to do reconnaissance or rush in before he can assemble his full strength.
OR
You decided to stay and help. Priest Blesses you and arms you with weapons and consumables that are very helpfull, but you are short on time and the BBEG is also fully prepared now.

In this case the players may not be sure which course of action was better, but they see clear results and they feel that their intitial choice mattered. Unless! they decided to stay and help and you do not convey to them the very important piece of information that if they have had rushed - things would have been significantly different.

These are very simple examples. First one is very simple and extreme, the second one is very short term.
With them I try to illustrate one simple idea - players should understand and feel that their choices matter.
Now I will try to show how this works (for me) on a larger scale and what is all this Figures and Goals staff is about.
TL,DR example ahead:

[sblock]My last campaign resolved on the island of Windstone, which has an outpost and a naval resupply base for the players Kingdom of origin. PCs arrive lvl1 with a task to help the head of the outpost, who is a retired adventurer, with his growing troubles.

There are several storylines to be explored or ignored:
- Goblins were sighted for the first time in a decade - how did they get to the island and why are they wearing uniform armor?
- Another party had went to the lakes in the East and disappeared. Lizardfolk live there, but they are not hostile, as far as it is known.
- A minor earthquake has hit the island recently. The Beasts on the island are acting strange and aggressive since.
- West part of the island is held by Undead, and the PCs see an unplundered castle as they sail towards the outpost Day 0.
- Human and goblin and other humanoid corpses are found with hearts torn out - something malignant is growing.

Those are the hooks that players learn on the first day. They are free to decide where they go and what they find more pressing. There are no right or wrong choices - it is an open world. If they choose to dig deeper into the history of the island and look for more hooks, they can learn that there should be an Ancient Keep somewhere on the island. Keep description doesn’t match the Castle they’ve seen enroute.

What is going on:
- Hobgoblin Empire is growing on the far continent. Their Legion has established an own oupost on the far side of an island. They are evil, yet lawful, they have their own agenda, but are not an immediate threat to the PCs or their Kingdom. Their leadership is thinking strategicaly and they can be negotiated with.
- A Hag has awoken. She is behind the Earthquake, Beasts aggression, she spawns monstrosities. She wants the island for herself and seeks to subdue or destroy all other Figures on the island. She plays the long game and will try to deceive the PCs to act in the ways that benefit her. She will try to crush them if they uncover her game or twart her plans too often.
- Missing hearts are caused by Peryton infestation. Their growing headcount will become a problem soon.
- An Evil Dragon has made her lair in the Lizardfolk lakes. The dragon hoards, kills those who don’t worship her and grows in size and power. She keeps a low profile at the start of the campaign, but will become bolder with time. She is a likely ally for the Hag and is hard to deal with for the PCs.
- Lizardfolk themselves are misled noble savages - they are not evil, they controlled by the Dragon and a few corrupt leaders. They are hostile when encountered, but can be freed and allied.
- Giant King is trapped in a magic mirror in an Ancient Keep. He will ally the Hag if he gets out.
- The other Adventuring Party are the “evil twins” trope to the PCs. They survived their raid to the lakes. They are a wild card, but will almost unevitably end up on the other side of the barricades with PCs.
- The Undead of the West Castle are enemies of the Hag as she orchestrated their fall in the past. They are not friends with anyone else either. They will be passive, only acting to defend themselves, until the very late.
- The Kingdomers at the outposts are PCs allies but they will not take dealings with any evil creatures lightly.
[/sblock]

All Figures have their own Goals, and they only know parts of what is going on. They act towards their Goals according with the Information they have, using the Resources they have. Resources vary according to the game type. In a poltical game they are influence, wealth and information itself. In a combat oriented game resources are more about menpower, personal might and magic.

Goals of Figures should collide and create conflict (so anyone who has goals that don’t collide is not a figure - you can safely ignore them for your game). Conflict is a process that should develop even with zero PC intervention. This is the key to a working open world. If the Prince wants his daughter saved and the PCs decide to do something else - she should either die (not from the old age) or be saved by someone else. What shouldn’t happen is that time shouldn’t freeze when the PCs are looking the other way. It goes without saying that a process that PCs can not effect in any meaningful way is bad and should be tweaked or discarded entirely.

TL,DR example continued:
[sblock]
Regardless of PC interaction, Processes will develop on the Island:
If left unchecked, Perytons will multiply and expand their hunting range further and further until no place under the sky on the Island is safe from whem. PCs will get the message sooner rather than later as they travel, as enough Perytons are always a threat to a party of their level. Tracking them to their breeding ground not only solves the problem, but can also shed some light on the cause of the problem (Hag), gives a good chance to locate the Ancient Keep which is nearby and can help to improve the relations with the Legion if those are not fubar already.
If they don’t interfere with the Ancient Keep (they will get the information about it sooner or later - if they get it early, they can act early) it will get plundered either by Legion/Evil Twins/Dragon on their own or under Hag “guidance”, depending on how those other figures are doing elsewhere.

Obviously, bigger Figures with more numerous and complex Goals can become envolved in several Processes.

The Hag starts with close to zero Resources, but has many ways to grow more:
Her Lair is slowly growing and corrupting the landscape around it, it will get progressively harder to find and will spawn more defenders/Hag troops over time. If Hag is forced to abandon it early on, it will handicap her significantly.

She has started the Peryton problem, she doesn’t control them directly, but they suit her needs. The more slaughter they cause, the weaker all the other living Figures get.

Her monsters will come to blows with the Lizardfolk, and there will be a window of opportunity to play two BBEGs against one another, but if missed, the Hag will wrap the Dragon around her finger. There will be a second opportunity when, as some of the Lizardfolk will resent such an alliance. If both are missed (and none of the two are dealt with by other means) - the good guys will be seriously handicapped in the endgame.

She is looking for the Ancient Keep to free her ally. It will not take her much time unless she is busy with something else, like protecting her lair, but even once she finds it - her monstrosities are bad at navigating trap-filled dungeons. She will seek to enlist the Legion/PCs/Evil Twins to loot the dungeon and surprise! Free the Giant.

etc.
[/sblock]
I hope I’ve made my point clear. The number of Processes can be as high as you are comfortable with, but they all should be relevant - i.e. effect PCs in some way and they should be individualy easy to track. In whatever way that fits the process and you personnaly. (Ex. - You can meticulously track the number of Perytons on the island and their threat range from their mountain, or you can just reduce the time periods between their attack on PCs till they decide to do something about it.)


TLDR Summary:
The Carrot and Stick method works only if players see the cause-effect connection.
IMO it works better when used in game, not metagame (i.e. not XP boosts/rest points etc).
To reward PCs for exploring the world the world should be in motion regardless of their actions.
Motion is created by conflicts that arise from competing Goals of Figures (PCs, NPCs and groups).
Conflicts development is a processes that has results - intermidiary and/or final.
Such results shoud have significant and clear effect on the PCs.
Beneficiary results are Carrot, hindering results are Stick.

This results in more interesting choices between various options in your games. This causes the “to rest or not to rest” choice becoming an actual choice and not a no-brainer. Also this can and should go beoyund the rests “problem” - you are the DM - it is your right and duty to incentivise everyting that make the game better and the other way around. Even when the players are not 100% sure which was the best course of action, they should feel that their decisions actually mattered to how the story unfolded.

I hope this helps.

PS Side benefit of this is that amount of “missed” DM-prepared material is minimized. If they don’t face threat X now, it will grow stronger and will come back to bite them in the back again and they might not be able to ignore it anymore.
From the tldr example - if they don’t explore the Ancient Keep when it is still intact (and level-appropriate) they will likely have to assault/infiltrate it with the Giant King active, summoning his elemental minions to wreack havoc and locking a few key magic items/allies inside.
PPS* Why I think this is easier to do in an open world as opposed to a dungeon crawl. In a dungeon crawl, the number of Figures is severly limited. As is time to develop various processes and show the cause-effect part. Roaming monsters denying rests are just to easy to circumvent with a few low-level spells.
PPPS As usual - my apologies for my imperfect language. I am not the native speaker.

Because I visited the forum on an empty stomach, the thought occurred to me that getting to six encounters per days (instead of blowing all your XP on 1-3 encounters) is a lot like trying to divvy up healthy eating among six small meals spaced across the day instead of eating 1-3 big meals and feeling loogy. Of course, that thought also means that my blood sugar is off too much to explore the comparison in depth, but I wanted to put it out there (with sixteen pages of back and forth here, no one will notice my random nonsense thought anyway).

AmerginLiath said:

Because I visited the forum on an empty stomach, the thought occurred to me that getting to six encounters per days (instead of blowing all your XP on 1-3 encounters) is a lot like trying to divvy up healthy eating among six small meals spaced across the day instead of eating 1-3 big meals and feeling loogy. Of course, that thought also means that my blood sugar is off too much to explore the comparison in depth, but I wanted to put it out there (with sixteen pages of back and forth here, no one will notice my random nonsense thought anyway).

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Indeed! Crafting an adventure is much like a culinary adventure.
One can craft a 8-course meal of smaller, easier to digest morsels.

A 6 course flight of appetizers.

Or a 1 course ‘eat this side of beef’ challenge.


I’m hungry too.

Now I'm hungry, too.


And that selfish orc won't share his pie!

Dan Chernozub said:

<Lots of good stuff>

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Thanks for going to the trouble to describe all that. I am trying to move toward doing things in my campaign more in a style such as you describe, and there are a few general issues on which I would be interested in your comments.

The first is level appropriateness. In a purely uncaring sandbox, the relative difficulty of challenges (perhaps Figures in your terminology) is determined by their inherent nature and internal logic, not by convenience for the PCs. That's fine as long as you are ok with the campaign being very episodic as the PCs confront and defeat (or retreat from) relatively self-contained, localized challenges. However, if you want the PCs to be able to pursue goals that involve overcoming a number of disparate challenges, then (it seems to me) something will have to have to go by the wayside - level appropriateness, or the freedom to tackle things in whatever order they choose, or the nature of the challenges being independent of the PCs' level progression. (In case it's not clear, I'm thinking here of a set of challenges that involve the PCs in sufficient adventuring that they will gain multiple levels in the process.)

To make this specific to your examples, consider the example five initial hooks you gave. Do these all provide level appropriate encounters for the PCs when they arrive on Windstone? If they pursue one single-mindedly, will they be able to conquer the underlying problem, or will they reach a point at which they have to back off and come back when they are more powerful?

As I read it, you imply that generally the threats not addressed will increase in difficulty. I assume it is also possible that Figures may be stymied or beaten down by processes not involving the PCs. However, even for the threats that grow, I have encountered a problem thinking about this for events in my own world: PCs level so fast that they easily outstrip any threat that grows at what I would consider a reasonable, natural pace. Do you find this to be a problem and if so, how do you handle it?

From the tldr example - if they don’t explore the Ancient Keep when it is still intact (and level-appropriate) they will likely have to assault/infiltrate it with the Giant King active, summoning his elemental minions to wreack havoc and locking a few key magic items/allies inside.

Click to expand...

This sort of implies that you may (at least sometimes) time events that increase threat levels to synchronize with PC level progression. Is that true, or have I misunderstood?

The second main challenge that I have is finding ways to get enough information to the PCs so that their decisions are not just consequential, but also informed. (To me, uninformed decisions are quite meaningless, no matter how consequential they turn out to be.) I certainly avail myself of standard techniques - knowledgeable NPCs and written materials that the PCs can obtain by various means. I was just wondering if you had any special techniques (or if you consider it to be not that big a deal). Often, the desire to give the players the sense of venturing into the unknown seems to conflict with the desire to have them making informed decisions, particularly the relative degree of peril that awaits the PCs.

It goes without saying that a process that PCs can not effect in any meaningful way is bad and should be tweaked or discarded entirely.

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This is one thing I think I disagree with. As long as the PCs still have consequential choices, I think it is ok for something out of their control to intrude on the rare occasion. A natural disaster or the ripple of consequences from the actions of a powerful Figure is a fine way to change the landscape in ways that provide new opportunities and obstacles for the PCs.

PPPS As usual - my apologies for my imperfect language. I am not the native speaker.

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Really, I think you did just fine.

Harzel said:

<lots of good comments and questions>

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Thanks for letting me know someone have actually read this

Let me unswer your question to the best of my ability

Harzel said:

The first is level appropriateness. In a purely uncaring sandbox, the relative difficulty of challenges (perhaps Figures in your terminology) is determined by their inherent nature and internal logic, not by convenience for the PCs. That's fine as long as you are ok with the campaign being very episodic as the PCs confront and defeat (or retreat from) relatively self-contained, localized challenges. However, if you want the PCs to be able to pursue goals that involve overcoming a number of disparate challenges, then (it seems to me) something will have to have to go by the wayside - level appropriateness, or the freedom to tackle things in whatever order they choose, or the nature of the challenges being independent of the PCs' level progression. (In case it's not clear, I'm thinking here of a set of challenges that involve the PCs in sufficient adventuring that they will gain multiple levels in the process.)

Click to expand...

I choose to kindly disagree.
First of all, if I understand correctly what you mean by it, obviously the game is not an uncaring sandbox, it is still a stroy where the PCs are the main characters, shaping its course and their actions defining the outcome.

But getting to your point. With my approach, PCs can not focus exclusively on one plotline (conflict/enemy/whateverthename) to the exclusion of everything else. They can embark on a quest to get the Island rid of the Hag, but they won’t be able to go through with it without running into the elements of other conflicts. Even if they hunt her singlemindedly - they will run into Legion patrols, they’ll be harassed by the peryton, they will want to return to the base of operations and some stuff will be happening there etc.

It is not like they are choosing from railroads A, B, C on day 1 and when emerge a few weeks later out of the vacuum to see there it has gotten them. We’ll get into the “information and decision making part” a bit later. The processes are interconnected enough to keep the PCs under constant pressure of making decisions regarding their time management and priorities.

Ex. After pinpointing the location of peryton nests, the PCs can clear themselves out themselves (+XP, close to zero loot, a couple of days of climbing up and down the rocks, some risk) or they can, relations permitting, report the location to the Legion. They are troubled enough by the birds to take the intel and through enough goblinoids at the nests to get rid of the problem (no gains, little time spent, Legion will suffer some casualties) or they can come up with another solution.

Harzel said:

To make this specific to your examples, consider the example five initial hooks you gave. Do these all provide level appropriate encounters for the PCs when they arrive on Windstone? If they pursue one single-mindedly, will they be able to conquer the underlying problem, or will they reach a point at which they have to back off and come back when they are more powerful?

As I read it, you imply that generally the threats not addressed will increase in difficulty. I assume it is also possible that Figures may be stymied or beaten down by processes not involving the PCs. However, even for the threats that grow, I have encountered a problem thinking about this for events in my own world: PCs level so fast that they easily outstrip any threat that grows at what I would consider a reasonable, natural pace. Do you find this to be a problem and if so, how do you handle it?

This sort of implies that you may (at least sometimes) time events that increase threat levels to synchronize with PC level progression. Is that true, or have I misunderstood?

Click to expand...

First, none of the hooks at day 1 is a clearly defined problem that PCs can “choose to focus”. Their initial goal is always “get more information”. What they have at the start is just enough to warrant an arguable discussion on how and where to proceed first. As they go, they pick up fights and clues and meet new people. When they get more information they re-asess their priorities. They do something - get more info - repeat. As the story goes more information comes in a form of feedback - results of their actions - so they get even more brainfood.

But to answer your question - it depends on the problem. Perrytons can be fixed in one go. Larger Figures - not so much. Also note that not everyone is neccessary an enemy - every intelligent being can be negotiated with. In some cases, like with Hag, it won’t ever end well, but thats another story. (She starts by introducing herself as a benevolent forest spirit outraged by the vile devastation laid to her land by evildoers.)

Regarding level appropriatness. No, not everythin is level-appropriate at day 1.
Undead Castle is a good challenge at level 7. No way they are getting in too early. However, there is enough forewarning that if you do try to storm it too early - you deserve what you get. One party of mine tried going in this direction from the start - an encounter with roaming pair of ghouls had sent the message clearly. It is not like this area is completely useless to them - there is an outlying crypt mini-dungeon that can be cleared for sweet loot and some clues. It is also geographically close to Perryton mountains (and the Giant Keep).
Its power won’t grow significantly.

Giant Keep, on the other hand, is a moderate challenge on level 5, can be done by a determined group of level 3. It is never completely level unpropriate as it is basically impossible to get there without getting to level 3. Its power also won’t ever grow. However, if PCs decide not to go/don’t find it at all, it can be ransacked by someone else leading to one of the two outcomes: a) its an empty shell with nothing to it, b) it is now run by the very BBEG and is sporting duergar and salamanders as guards, not dwarf skeletons.

Some encounters are obviously combat-wise level inappropriate but can be negotiated/outsmarted. PCs can meet a dozen+ goblins on a scouting mission on a first week. Open fight won’t do. But you can talk, you can walk away, you can wait till they split. Or as one of my groups did, you can wait till they make a night camp and strom in as a crazed bunch of mass-murderers risking their lives for goblin loot and sheer enjoyment of slaughter.

Some minor instances don’t level up (ex. aforementioned crypt in the lands of the dead). They are just ain’t important to bother with. I either just scrap them completely if there is nothing to be gained from them, or you can give the PCs some target practice if it will make them feel good.

With those who do “level up” I mostly have the opposite problem - how come they are still manageble after the PCs have screwed up a few to many times. Once again - it is usually not just the clock ticking but some actions that the players took are decided not to take that “causes” growth.

I am totaly fine with making a final fight with a bloodied and stripped of resources cornered BBEG a cakewalk to the PCs after they’ve spent time and energy stripping him of resources, bloodying him and getting him into the corner. Devising counterbalances for the Figure not to get out of hand strong is trickier. And sometimes I just let it run amock with PC goals quickly switching to survival mode.

Harzel said:

The second main challenge that I have is finding ways to get enough information to the PCs so that their decisions are not just consequential, but also informed. (To me, uninformed decisions are quite meaningless, no matter how consequential they turn out to be.) I certainly avail myself of standard techniques - knowledgeable NPCs and written materials that the PCs can obtain by various means. I was just wondering if you had any special techniques (or if you consider it to be not that big a deal). Often, the desire to give the players the sense of venturing into the unknown seems to conflict with the desire to have them making informed decisions, particularly the relative degree of peril that awaits the PCs.

Click to expand...

As I read it, may be I am wrong, you are not using the venturing into the unknown as a source of information enough. Encounters are themselves are what the players pay the most attention to. They see - they act. They fight the patrol and one gobbo runs away - this get them thinking. Where is he running to? Does he have more friends? He certainly does. We travel the place of battle again a few days later - all the hearts have been plucked out - who did it? A week later peryton attacks intensify alarmingly. Could this be connected?

Also useful - interrogations of captives, base of operations/pcs themselves coming under attack (not necessary lethal).

In other words - the growing threat is not growing somewhere beyound the horizon, it is interacting with the PCs as it grows in more and more alarming ways. This should incentivise them. Knowledgeble npcs and documents are better used for giving the clues on how to solve the problem, not “why even bother” with the problem.

Harzel said:

This is one thing I think I disagree with. As long as the PCs still have consequential choices, I think it is ok for something out of their control to intrude on the rare occasion. A natural disaster or the ripple of consequences from the actions of a powerful Figure is a fine way to change the landscape in ways that provide new opportunities and obstacles for the PCs.

Click to expand...

Natural disasters provide situational challenges, flavor etc. not effect the plot dramatically (unless it was a doomsday device with a clock on it - but this is something they could and should have done something about).
Powerful Figures obviously should take actions that significantly effect the PCs, but they shouldn’t be so powerful that PC can't do anything to influence them.


I hope this helps. On some points, I guess, you might want to go into more detailed examples to illustrate your take on the situation. I am particulary interested in how you run into trouble of challenges being unable to keep up with the pcs.