D&D 4E 4E WotC Tools dead?

Zardnaar said:

Players options stuff was TSR not WotC, it predates the buyout.

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Ok, minor details. Not all that important to the point. We didn't know about it until after the takeover, so we thought it was new. *shrug*

Its not just the measurements its all the powers that involve movement, push, pull slide XYZ squares.

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So no abilities or spells could pull, push, or slide before 4e?

More classes may have gained access to specific abilities that spelled out a character's ability to create movement effects, but the concept is not new and not underrepresented prior. The biggest difference is that the effects are more precisely described. The Keyworded nature of them maybe makes them stand out more now, but if you look back and compare, the abilities effects are similar to what has come before.

And this still has nothing to do with the thread topic.

So no abilities or spells could pull, push, or slide before 4e?

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Been playing since ‘77.

Yhey weren’t really a player resource beyond Mage Hand and Telekinesis (spell or psionically power). If there were any others, they were so rare and unused as to be forgotten by me, at least- most likely hidden on seldom used creatures.

Dannyalcatraz said:

Been playing since ‘77.

Yhey weren’t really a player resource beyond Mage Hand and Telekinesis (spell or psionically power). If there were any others, they were so rare and unused as to be forgotten by me, at least- most likely hidden on seldom used creatures.

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So you have 10 years on me. Appeal to authority isn't going to cut it.

Lots of different spells could be used to create those effects, plus there was grappling, tripping, bull-rush (we did this often before 3.x - it's a basic concept). Command, scare, spook, turn undead, to name a few. Any spell that could force a creature to flee, or act as you wished, and I remember many being used in my 2e games.

I'll also point out that facing was a big deal in prior editions which has every bit as much (or little) reliance on a grid to keep track, and was something that everyone needed to be aware of, unless they enjoyed being flanked, backstabbed, or denied the AC bonus of their shield.

And this still has nothing to do with the thread topic.

Joshua Randall said:

Back to the topic of browsers...

Character Builder works for me in Internet Explorer(*), Firefox (even the updated versions), and Safari.

Compendium works for me in almost every browser including mobile Safari.

(*) If you have Edge, you effectively also have I.E. because one of the options is "Open in Internet Explorer" for any page you're on. So, go to the DDI launch page in Edge, do "Open in I.E.", and then launch the Character Builder.

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I find Sea Monkey to be the best actually now. Modern browser, up to date with Mac system software, runs Silverlight:
http://www.seamonkey-project.org

I just use Sea Monkey for that very one specific url, which kind of even makes it better for it.

Nemesis Destiny said:

So you have 10 years on me. Appeal to authority isn't going to cut it.

Lots of different spells could be used to create those effects, plus there was grappling, tripping, bull-rush (we did this often before 3.x - it's a basic concept). Command, scare, spook, turn undead, to name a few. Any spell that could force a creature to flee, or act as you wished, and I remember many being used in my 2e games.

I'll also point out that facing was a big deal in prior editions which has every bit as much (or little) reliance on a grid to keep track, and was something that everyone needed to be aware of, unless they enjoyed being flanked, backstabbed, or denied the AC bonus of their shield.

And this still has nothing to do with the thread topic.

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Other people raised the point, we're refuting it. Positioning was important sure, but that was often done on grid paper or you winged it as there was no defender mechanic from being flanked. Shield walls were used for that reason.

There were tactics in AD&D but it was not via powers and very few things could move poeple around the battlefield (telekinesis was about it- lvl 5 spell IIRC or psionic).

It was not so baked so to speak. I never used minis in AD&D or BECMI back in the day (I might have recently I don't recall). Did not have them could not buy them.

Zardnaar said:

Other people raised the point, we're refuting it. Positioning was important sure, but that was often done on grid paper or you winged it as there was no defender mechanic from being flanked. Shield walls were used for that reason.

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That's not the point though. Flanking was still a thing. Being denied your shield bonus from facing was still a thing. Attacks from behind were a thing. And so was higher ground, and a pile of other baggage from the wargaming days. If your only point is selectively raising things that were semi-unique to 4e, all you're doing is bashing it in a veiled manner. There's nothing unique to 4e that couldn't work just as well "the way it used to be done" i.e. on paper, or winging it (as we have done and will continue to do).

There were tactics in AD&D but it was not via powers and very few things could move poeple around the battlefield (telekinesis was about it- lvl 5 spell IIRC or psionic).

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Spells were a form of power, and in 3.x feats enabled power-like abilities, as did some proficiencies in late 2e. Plus, creatures had all manner of abilities, supernatural powers, and other non-spell "powers" that did stuff. The lack of a "power block" doesn't change what they were. And saying you couldn't move things around in AD&D is demonstrably false, even beyond your one example. I already listed several, spells and otherwise, and that's off the top of my head for system(s) I haven't used in a decade or two.

It was not so baked so to speak. I never used minis in AD&D or BECMI back in the day (I might have recently I don't recall). Did not have them could not buy them.

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I disagree about the degree to which they were implied. I find my use of maps and other positioning aids has remained approximately constant throughout the years. The diagrams have gotten better at illustrating the rules being presented, and thus may appear more prominent, but that's about it.

Can we get back to discussing the online tools now, please?

Nemesis Destiny said:

So you have 10 years on me. Appeal to authority isn't going to cut it.

Lots of different spells could be used to create those effects, plus there was grappling, tripping, bull-rush (we did this often before 3.x - it's a basic concept). Command, scare, spook, turn undead, to name a few. Any spell that could force a creature to flee, or act as you wished, and I remember many being used in my 2e games.

I'll also point out that facing was a big deal in prior editions which has every bit as much (or little) reliance on a grid to keep track, and was something that everyone needed to be aware of, unless they enjoyed being flanked, backstabbed, or denied the AC bonus of their shield.

And this still has nothing to do with the thread topic.

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Dude, chill! I wasn’t making an appeal to authority.

I was just saying I’ve been playing for a while and that there were not many forced movement player resources. Clearly, my recollections were a tad off. Mea culpa- I should know better than to post while distracted. Still, like a great many things, the feel of those resources in editions prior to 4th were fairly different than in that edition.

For instance, most of the 4Ed forced movement abilities only move a space or two, but something like Turn Undead and fear effects caused a full on flight until the duration was over or until a save was required.

Dannyalcatraz said:

Dude, chill! I wasn’t making an appeal to authority.

I was just saying I’ve been playing for a while and that there were not many forced movement player resources. Clearly, my recollections were a tad off. Mea culpa- I should know better than to post while distracted. Still, like a great many things, the feel of those resources in editions prior to 4th were fairly different than in that edition.

For instance, most of the 4Ed forced movement abilities only move a space or two, but something like Turn Undead and fear effects caused a full on flight until the duration was over or until a save was required.

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My apologies if I came across defensive, but my prediction from post #104 basically came true.

I have not been able to participate or even read a 4e thread on here since 5e got announced without it being derailed by people that don't even play that edition. It's very, very tiresome, because it's the same old stuff, over and over. It's frustrating in the extreme. It's why I haven't posted much in at least a year.

I keep trying to steer back to the topic at hand.

I know we're all wrong about everything and having badwrongfun and not even playing Real D&D™, but I'd just like to continue doing so without someone picking an argument about the rules of a game they don't even play.

One of my favorite misrepresentations of 1e came out during the Next Play Testing... where people claimed it didnt have flanking and opportunity attacks LOL. What did they think facing and "breaking off from melee" were?

AD&D DMG said:

Special Types Of Attacks:
Flank attacks All flank attacks negate any defender armor class addition for shield. Attacks against a rear flank, where the opponent is virtually unable to view the attackers, negate dexterity armor class bonus.

Rear Attacks: Opponents attacking from the rear gain a +2 to hit, negate any consideration for shield, and also negate any consideration for dexterity.

Breaking Off From Melee At such time as any creature decides, it can break off the engagement and flee the melee. To do so, however, allows the opponent a free attack or attack routine. This attack is calculated as if it were a rear attack upon a stunned opponent. When this attack is completed, the retiring/fleeing party may move away at full movement rate, and unless the opponent pursues and is able to move at a higher rate of speed, the melee is ended and the situation becomes one of encounter avoidance.

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For 5e fans 10 minute short rests after every battle assumed.

AD&D DMG said:

"and in addition, they should rest a turn after every time they engage in combat or any other strenuous activities. "

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And the classic hit points are meat assertion has many quoteworthy refutations

AD&D DMG said:

As has been detailed, hit points are not actually a measure of physical damage, by and large, as far as characters (and some other creatures as well) are concerned. Therefore, the location of hits and the type of damage caused are not germane to them. While this is not true with respect to most monsters, it is neither necessary nor particularly useful.

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People also complain when I mention the idea of hit points being different style for monsters... Gygax is very much saying so right there.

Nemesis Destiny said:

I know we're all wrong about everything and having badwrongfun and not even playing Real D&D™, but I'd just like to continue doing so without someone picking an argument about the rules of a game they don't even play.

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yeh the trolls not only undermined the best designed D&D we have had they have to crow and crow about winning and ruin any community we might try to have.