D&D 5E Group Iniative Order

TaranTheWanderer · Apr 10, 2019

iserith said:
In some situations, the DM may effectively be having some monsters move and take the Ready action to ready an attack when certain triggers are met (e.g. when some number of blood hawks surround the target). So it's rules legal as long as the movement, Ready action, and trigger are all faithfully applied and resolved. Whether or not you find the outcome satisfying even though it's rules legal is another matter though.

This.

The dm can move them, one at time, and then have them wait to ready an action to attack.

but [MENTION=6992304]Telvin[/MENTION]:

- If they had multiple attacks, they'd lose their extra attacks because readying takes your action and then it takes your 'reaction' to make the attack. You can't ready multiple attacks.

Really, in this scenario(because of pack tactics), only the first bloodhawk (per PC) needs to ready until any of their other allies moved in. The others can just move in and attack as long as one of their allies was already adjacent. So, if they DM felt bloodhawks were smart enough to move and ready and only attacked once, then it's legal. With INT 3, I might have made the first bloodhawk attack with a normal attack...maybe. 3 is still pretty smart.

[MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION]

Hmmmm. What *is* the rule for simultaneous initiative? Having them all move then all attack creates a massive tactical advantage over having them each move then attack.

For me, they all go at once but still 'one at a time.' It probably evens out because now the PCs can all go simultaneously and use the same tactics. Although, it makes initiative a bit more important, I think. Having the PCs all go first and take out several of the bloodhawks before they acted might have changed the outcome.

[MENTION=6992304]Telvin[/MENTION] Who won initiative?

iserith · Apr 10, 2019

Morrus said:
Hmmmm. What *is* the rule for simultaneous initiative? Having them all move then all attack creates a massive tactical advantage over having them each move then attack.

Like monsters all go on the same initiative. They act individually at the DM's discretion at that initiative count. Readied actions, if used, are resolved as normal.

Morrus · Apr 10, 2019

iserith said:
Like monsters all go on the same initiative. They act individually at the DM's discretion at that initiative count. Readied actions, if used, are resolved as normal.

Seems it would require a group of monsters with incredible tactical discipline acting as optimally as an SAS team.

iserith · Apr 10, 2019

Morrus said:
Seems it would require a group of monsters with incredible tactical discipline acting as optimally as an SAS team.

Or any reasonable fictional justification really. The first blood hawk swoops in and screeches, putting on a territorial display, but does not attack until the other hawks fly in. For example.

Morrus · Apr 10, 2019

iserith said:
Or any reasonable fictional justification really. The first blood hawk swoops in and screeches, putting on a territorial display, but does not attack until the other hawks fly in. For example.

Whatever works for you, I guess. For me, monsters always operating with split-second optimal group tactical precision isn't interesting.

jasper · Apr 10, 2019

Morrus said:
Whatever works for you, I guess. For me, monsters always operating with split-second optimal group tactical precision isn't interesting.

So all your monsters have a separate init? I think you over stating the case. The is a boss fight with waves. First wave is 4 or 5 guards. Depending on how you did earlier. The boss is protected by box text. Once the first wave is killed, the second wave comes.
Second wave is 8 blood hawks which will operate in teams of two using pack tactics. So in this case one pc is not a target. The villain is escaping but can be engaged by missile weapons. If both blood hawks hit, the avg damage will zero a wizard. The hippogriff is also present. But the group can grab the prisoner and retreat.
I can see this being a tpk if the dm is not careful. Especially if everyone is first level. While I don't train my monsters to SAS team tactics, I will use their abilities. I have dm this mission at least six times. How I run depends on the players and levels of pcs.

Morrus · Apr 10, 2019

jasper said:
So all your monsters have a separate init?

No, I just have each move then attack rather than move all of them then all of them attack, unless they’re particularly tactically efficient. Monsters act according to their abilities, not mine.

jasper · Apr 10, 2019

Morrus said:
No, I just have each move then attack rather than move all of them then all of them attack, unless they’re particularly tactically efficient. Monsters act according to their abilities, not mine.

Blood hawks have pack tactics. And from the module, "...that swarm the characters. They try to work in groups of two in order to take advantage of their pack tactics ability"
I generally try to move all the monsters(if they have to) first, then attack, then move. Because I sometimes forget monsters if they are scattered out on the map. (of course half the time my players FORGET to tell me monster 7,8,9 neither move or attacked.)

Telvin · Apr 10, 2019

I got the impression that the DM was relatively new.

If I recall correctly, a couple of the characters got to go, then the hippogriffs, a player, then the blood hawks, then me.

The DM did run the blood hawks as pairing up on characters and the hippogiffs attacked separate characters. Also, if I recall correctly we had a fighter, wizard, ranger, bard, and rogue, so no healer

thom_likes_gaming · Apr 10, 2019

jasper said:
Blood hawks have pack tactics. And from the module, "...that swarm the characters. They try to work in groups of two in order to take advantage of their pack tactics ability"
I generally try to move all the monsters(if they have to) first, then attack, then move. Because I sometimes forget monsters if they are scattered out on the map. (of course half the time my players FORGET to tell me monster 7,8,9 neither move or attacked.)

This feels neither RAW nor RAI to me. I always interpreted group Initiative as "This group acts at the same time outgame; one after other finishes their turn."

The first chapter of EN Publishing's 'To Slay a Dragon' has Kobold Hunters with pack tactics. I always played them so they tried to surround characters quickly by one moving in and attacking, then the second one attacking with advantage. Come round 2 they both get advantage and the fun begins.