Pathfinder 1E What qualifies a creature as an extraplanar outsider, an extraplanar animal/humanoid/etc or an extraplanar native outsider?

VelvetViolet · Mar 4, 2014

In my surveying of various 3.5 and PF books, I've noticed that extraplanar creatures can generally be divided into three categories: extraplanar outsiders, extraplanar creatures of any other type, and native outsiders that are native to an outer plane or similar.

Exactly what criteria qualifies a creature to be placed in one of the three categories above?

Take the tenebrous worm, for example. It is an outsider native to the Plane of Shadow. However, it could just as easily qualify as an extraplanar magical beast. The only important difference between the two is that an outsider is subject to planar binding and cannot be raised, etc. But otherwise all outsiders just seem to be garden variety aberrations, humanoids and magical beasts from another plane that get extra skill points and stuff regardless of whether it makes sense. If one wished for it to be subject to planar binding or more difficult to resurrect, then merely give it an outsider ancestry/blood trait, a quasi-soulless trait, a planetouched subtype, etc.

Keldin · Mar 4, 2014

I'm not sure what you're expecting any of us to say. There are very few of us that can actually speak to the specifics -- the original authors, mostly. Other employees of WotC and Paizo too. The rest of us can only use the resources we have access to (Monster Manuals/Bestiaries) and/or interviews and other comments from the above-named "official" sources.

That said, it looks to me like you're actually asking two different questions. The first one is relatively straightforward to answer: What is an extraplanar creature? And the answer is actually given in both SRDs: This subtype is applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. This means that any character born in a "normal" world (i.e. prime material plane) gains the extraplanar subtype whenever they aren't on that plane (or one of the transitive planes), whether they're in the the plane of fire or in Elysium.

The second question appears to be what's the difference between being an outsider and being an aberration, humanoid, or magical beast? That one is a lot stickier. Some people ARE proponents of reducing the number of types, and the elimination of outsiders might well fit into this. (Often they combine humanoid and monstrous humanoid and animal and magical beast as well.) Others like the system the way it is.

In the end, though, I think it just ends up being "your game is your game." If you want to virtually remove the outsider and change the types of relevant monsters in your game, more power to you. The only thing to be sure to do in that case is to inform your players, so you're all working from the same idea.

gamerprinter · Mar 4, 2014

In fact, in my world building projects and publish settings I often create brand new monsters and have no problems creating new monster subtypes to fit those settings best. I make sure that the type fits the generally accepted type so class features and knowledge checks are more universal, but I have no qualms about creating new subtypes at all. For example the kappa and tengu are both found in the bestiaries, but in the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror both have the subtype Yokai, in addition to the normal type and subtypes in the bestiaries. Also for kappa, its also of the goblin subtype (even its not that in the Bestiaries.)

So I'm definitely not an advocate of reducing the number of monster type/subtype - the more the merrier, I say.

Tovec · Mar 5, 2014

[MENTION=6686357]Raneth[/MENTION] I think you have some misconceptions. I'll clear up what I can.

But over all [MENTION=57764]Keldin[/MENTION] is right. Especially in that you would have to ask the original authors why an outsider is an outsider as opposed to a magical beast.

In the case of the tenebrous worm, according to this:
http://paizo.com/PRD/additionalMonsters/tenebrousWorm.html
It is typed:
N Medium outsider (extraplanar)

It is therefore NOT a native outsider.

So let me start with terms. Specifically the three you brought up.
A. extraplanar outsiders,
B. extraplanar creatures of any other type,
C. native outsiders that are native to an outer plane or similar.

I'm starting with C. (Native Outsiders). By this I assume you mean creatures with the type of Outsider (native), as it is the only time I can remember 'native' being tied in relation to the creature type. You'll note that regardless of its origin, outsiders do not universally gain the "native" subtype just for being on a different plane. Native outsiders, as defined by that same wiki, are:

Native Subtype: This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

Basically, it is an 'outsider' that is not from outside. It is an outsider born and raised and belonging to the material plane. It is not generally inherited, it is something that this creature is born with. If a devil has a kid on the material plane, they may or may not gain this subtype as they may or may still belong to the nine hells.

So, I think you are generally confusing Outsiders (native) [C.] with Outsiders (extraplanar) [A.] which is a subtype applied whenever an outsider is on a plane other than its plane of origin. In fact, as already pointed out, it is applied to ALL creatures when on a plane other than their plane of origin. If an Humanoid (elf) goes to Arborea it becomes a Humanoid (elf, extraplanar). If an Outsider (devil, evil, lawful) goes to the material plane it becomes Outsider (devil, evil, lawful, extraplanar). Heck, if an Outsider (native) [let's say a tiefling] goes to Hades it becomes an Outsider (native, extraplanar). Extraplanar is the transitive property and something it is generally not born with. The kid from the previous paragraph may be considered a native outsider if born on the material plane, but if it is not then it may additionally and separately lack the extraplanar subtype while on the material plane.

Finally, B. "extraplanar creatures of any other type" applies to basically anything else that is a resident of the planes but is not an Outsider type. This is relatively rare in the grand scheme but it can happen. As for why they exist? I have ideas but as the these creatures are fairly rare I haven't put much thought into it. In general such creatures are rare because if you belong to and from an outer plane then you are an outsider.

As for why Outsiders exist as a type, as opposed to humanoid, magical beast or aberration and others (as you said towards the bottom of your post), specifically when talking about the tenebrous worm not being a magical beast and is an outsider? Well I'd have to say it belongs to this final section, B. It is not a magical beast because magical beasts are born on the material plane. It is an outsider because it is born NOT on the material plane. Granted it is not an outer plane but in PF even elementals of the inner planes are given the Outsider type. The outsider type has extra benefits like a lack of most basic needs to keep one alive ("Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep."). The tenebrous worm isn't just a magical beast, it is a supernatural one. But honestly if you don't like that explanation and see not reason why it couldn't be a magical beast then make it one, it doesn't change much. But even in most rewrites there is good reason to keep the outsider type where it is, if modified (my "outsiders" don't need to even breathe).

VelvetViolet · Mar 5, 2014

I know what the extraplanar and native subtypes are. I mean an "outsider (native)" that is native to a plane other than the material. Neraphim are an example: their type is "outsider (native)" but they are native to the outer plane Limbo and have no innate connection to the material plane. They would, oxymoronically, have both the extraplanar and native subtypes while on the material plane.

So the native subtype is essentially meaningless because it can be and is applied to outsiders that are native to the outer planes in official WotC material, much less in 3rd party material.

Also, extraplanar non-outsiders are not rare at all, they're the default form of life on the outer planes. The fiendish, celestial, entropic, and resolute creature templates state that they are used to represent planar versions of material animals and humanoids and whatnot, which are stated to be quite common on the outer planes. So the outsider type does not automatically apply to creatures from the outer planes and is actually quite rare as a type itself.

Considering how the type/subtype is applied arbitrarily, inconsistently and incoherently even in official products, how am I supposed to decide what type would be most appropriate when designing a planar creature from scratch?

Cadence · Mar 5, 2014

Raneth said:
I know what the extraplanar and native subtypes are. I mean an "outsider (native)" that is native to a plane other than the material. Neraphim are an example: their type is "outsider (native)" but they are native to the outer plane Limbo and have no innate connection to the material plane. They would, oxymoronically, have both the extraplanar and native subtypes while on the material plane.

That page explicitly has them not being only "Outsiders" and not "Outsider (native)". It explains that with "Outsiders: Neraphim are native to the plane of Limbo, and thus have the outsider type. They gain the extraplanar subytpe when not on Limbo."

Is there some other page or book that had them listed differently? If so, I'm guessing the other source is a typo since it would make no sense in regards to the rules on types.

Tovec · Mar 5, 2014

Raneth said:
I know what the extraplanar and native subtypes are. I mean an "outsider (native)" that is native to a plane other than the material. Neraphim are an example: their type is "outsider (native)" but they are native to the outer plane Limbo and have no innate connection to the material plane. They would, oxymoronically, have both the extraplanar and native subtypes while on the material plane.

On the link you gave me there is nothing saying their TYPE is Outsider (native). They are native to Limbo, but they are not Outsider (native) as far as I can tell. Please quote a specific section if I missed it - after reading [MENTION=6701124]Cadence[/MENTION]'s post I only did a quick search.

Basically if I/we are right, then they are Outsiders only. Maybe Outsider (chaos) or some such but I'm not sure of their exact type. They are NOT native outsiders simply because they say "native to" on their page. They would have to be native to the material plane, like Aasimars, Teiflings, and even Couatl [LG Large outsider (native)] are. Link: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/couatl

No, the word native applies to something that when banished returns to the mortal plane. What you are talking about is a creature native to Limbo, and will be banished back to Limbo, and is an Outsider. That subtype it has (when not on Limbo) is extraplanar. (Native) is permanent. (Extraplanar) is transient, applying when not on their home plane.

So the native subtype is essentially meaningless because it can be and is applied to outsiders that are native to the outer planes in official WotC material, much less in 3rd party material.

Show me an actual stat-block that says Outsider (native), like Couatl above, that is native to a plane other than the material. It is not applied haphazardly, though I don't discount that somewhere a writer may have done so incorrectly. It has a specific meaning and may have done wrong if you do have an actual example.

Also, extraplanar non-outsiders are not rare at all, they're the default form of life on the outer planes.

What? Link me an actual stat-block to a non-outsider that is native to the planes (celestial, etc. templates actually do NOT apply, they are templates applied to other creatures). The part I am disputing is the non-outsider part. A extraplanar non-outsider on the planes is not that rare, since a human just loafing around on the astral gains that. I didn't think that was what you meant. I assumed you meant creatures that should be outsiders and aren't or creatures that are outsiders and shouldn't be. Sorry for the confusion if that was unclear.

The fiendish, celestial, entropic, and resolute creature templates state that they are used to represent planar versions of material animals and humanoids and whatnot, which are stated to be quite common on the outer planes. So the outsider type does not automatically apply to creatures from the outer planes and is actually quite rare as a type itself.

I did a quick search for the celestial template in PF, I can't find an actual template on the PFSRD. I can find a "simple template" which is not the same. Just based on the quick conversion rule that it gives, you are right.

Essentially, the quick rebuild rules don't give direct guidance but based on 3.5 material the creature type should not change, but it comes naturalized to the outer planes. It loses the extraplanar subtype but its type doesn't change to outsider. It becomes planar without losing its orignal type, it doesn't become an outsider simply because it is celestial.

[sblock]3.5 Type and Subtype:
Animals or vermin with this template become magical beasts, but otherwise the creature type is unchanged. Size is unchanged. Celestial creatures encountered on the Material Plane have the extraplanar subtype.[/sblock]

However looking at the half-celestial template it does clearly say, "Type: The creature's type changes to outsider (native). Do not recalculate HD, BAB, or saves." Which means that half-celestials are native to the material plane, they would gain the extraplanar subtype when off of it, just like a human.

Also, just because celestial versions of other creatures are common on the planes, doesn't mean they are the common creature of the planes. That is to say, just because some humans may live in a settlement somewhere on the planes, doesn't mean they are the normal denizens of that plane, they'd still be outnumbered by Devils in Baator/Nine Hells. And they would still be Humanoid (human, extraplanar) and not suddenly Outsider (human, native) or anything odd like that.

Considering how the type/subtype is applied arbitrarily, inconsistently and incoherently even in official products, how am I supposed to decide what type would be most appropriate when designing a planar creature from scratch?

Determine its origin. Is it a creature originally from the planes, one that becomes naturalized to the planes, other? If it born to and belongs to the planes then it is probably Outsider, if it becomes an outsider then you could end up changing its type, or just giving it the extraplanar subtype. And if it is NOT originally of the planes, like a human, or any creature originally from the material plane then decide its type as a magical beast, aberration, etc. It is not arbitary, it is based on origin. That is why I originally said that a devil born on the material plane may or may not have the extraplanar subtype, but tried to say that it probably wouldn't have the native one. Just because it was born or even lives there does not mean it belongs there. It is a different thing entirely. Native Outsiders are native to the material plane, the reason for the subtype is to denote just such a thing. To say that they are NOT from an outer plane. It would be like having a "mortal" subtype if the Type was called Immortal. Or a corporeal subtype if the type was called incorporeal. It denotes not native to anything but the material, when the type says that this creature is native to an outer plane. Extraplanar is applied completely independently from that. There is no conflict (not even oxymoronicly) to have both subtypes at once. If an aasimar goes to any plane other than the material then he gains the extraplanar and KEEPS the native subtype.

VelvetViolet · Mar 5, 2014

When I discuss creature types and subtypes, I'm doing so from the perspective of the material plane unless stated otherwise. When I say extraplanar, I mean anything not native to the material plane. When I say native, I mean any outsider with the native subtype and native to the material plane. When I say "outsider (extraplanar, native)" I mean an outsider with the native subtype that is not native to the prime material plane.

Cadence said:
That page explicitly has them not being only "Outsiders" and not "Outsider (native)". It explains that with "Outsiders: Neraphim are native to the plane of Limbo, and thus have the outsider type. They gain the extraplanar subytpe when not on Limbo."

Is there some other page or book that had them listed differently? If so, I'm guessing the other source is a typo since it would make no sense in regards to the rules on types.

It's a typo or the author forget how outsiders work. The descriptions in the Planar Handbook state unambiguously that the outsider races presented therein are mortal creatures that need nourishment, age and reproduce like other mortal creatures. Otherwise it's not really balanced to have pure outsiders as PC races (at least not without an LA +1 at the very least) due to their blanket spell immunity, lack of need to eat/sleep and inability to be raised or resurrected if killed (barring the spell "revive outsider" which, IIRC, did not exist at the time the PlH was published).

Tovec said:
What? Link me an actual stat-block to a non-outsider that is native to the planes (celestial, etc. templates actually do NOT apply, they are templates applied to other creatures). The part I am disputing is the non-outsider part. A extraplanar non-outsider on the planes is not that rare, since a human just loafing around on the astral gains that. I didn't think that was what you meant. I assumed you meant creatures that should be outsiders and aren't or creatures that are outsiders and shouldn't be. Sorry for the confusion if that was unclear.

Celestial and fiendish creatures are planar counterparts of material creatures. They are not material creatures that have adapted to the outer planes. Both templates are inherited templates, meaning the creatures are born with it, it can't be applied to an existing material creature (outside special circumstances). While some planar creatures might be naturalized, most of them seem to have been born from the planes or created from scratch to populate them.

The extraplanar subtype simply didn't exist until 3.5 edition. Before then, all creatures from outer planes were stated as outsiders, even if they otherwise resembled animals, humanoids, etc. Whereas 3.5 open the door for extraplanar creatures of other types and made these the default form of life on the outer planes (e.g. the celestial and fiendish templates). However, the outsider type is still used for any kind of creature from the outer planes (aside from celestial, entropic, fiendish and resolute creatures), even if another type would be equally appropriate. Outsiders have absolutely nothing in common with one another besides being extraplanar and immune to spells that don't affect outsiders. Just take any creature that, if it were native to the material plane, would be one of the standard types and make it into an outsider. There's really no reason why outsiders can't have the same variety of types as material creatures can with the associated changes to hit dice, skills, traits, etc except for the arbitrary "anything not from the material plane is automatically an outsider, except for all these numerous exceptions."

The native subtype makes three unrelated changes to the outsider type: native outsiders are native to the material plane (which can also be accomplished by removing the extraplanar subtype), native outsiders must eat and sleep, and native outsiders can be raised and resurrected. The same result can be achieved by giving a non-outsider type the quality "vulnerability to effects that specifically target outsiders." There are several types of native outsiders with dramatically different origins: planetouched are the descendants (often many, many generations later) of couplings between mortals and celestials, fiends or genies, while tritons are outsiders who emigrated to the material plane and somehow developed the native subtype. If, as tritons indicate, outsiders can gain the native subtype simply by living and reproducing on the material plane for centuries (without interbreeding with humanoids), then it stands to reason that animals, humanoids, etc can become outsiders by living and reproducing on the outer planes for centuries (without interbreeding with outsiders). If, as the planetouched indicate, all the descendants of an outsider and a mortal are native outsiders regardless of how many generations removed, then the material plane should be filled with native outsiders.

As you state, there's no reason why an outsider can't be native to the material plane without possessing the native subtype: they simply wouldn't have the extraplanar subtype. There's no reason why a planetouched or other outsider (native) can't be native to a plane other than the material plane: they would simply possess both the native and the extraplanar subtype on the material plane. As such, the native subtype is confusingly named because it can apply to outsiders that are not native to the material plane and does not always apply to outsiders that are native to the material plane, and the word "native" itself is always used with reference to outsiders to indicate which plane they are native to. The outsider type is confusingly named because you can have outsiders that are native to the material plane, which grammatically-speaking means they aren't outsiders.

Tovec · Mar 5, 2014

Raneth said:
It's a typo or the author forget how outsiders work. The descriptions in the Planar Handbook state unambiguously that the outsider races presented therein are mortal creatures that need nourishment, age and reproduce like other mortal creatures.

Races presented in the planar handbook:
Aasimars, Bariaurs, Buommans, Mephlings, Neraphim, Shadowwyfts, Spikers, Tieflings, Wildren.

Race TYPES presented (in order):
Outsider (native), Outsider (EP), Humanoid (EP), Humanoid (EP), Outsider (EP), Outsider (EP), Humanoid (EP), Outsider (native), Outsider (EP).

Please note that I am saying EP as shorthand for Extraplanar, and I am giving it in the case that all of these creatures are on the material plane.

Beyond that; humanoids need to nourishment, age and reproduce, native outsiders too. The true outsiders may be required to do all of that, but it would be an exception - specifically noted in their race write up - from the rule that states:

"Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep." [From the SRD and PFSRD.]

I do have a quick question, would you have such a problem if the word 'native' was replaced with 'material'? Just wondering.

Otherwise it's not really balanced to have pure outsiders as PC races (at least not without an LA +1 at the very least) due to their blanket spell immunity, lack of need to eat/sleep and inability to be raised or resurrected if killed (barring the spell "revive outsider" which, IIRC, did not exist at the time the PlH was published).

"Blanket spell immunity." Where are they getting that? Irrelevant. The LA or immunity or any such issues are a balancing issue and have nothing to do with the 'native subtype doesn't make sense' conversation. Also at the time the PHB was released, neither did these races in the Planar Handbook (it came after). But once again that is irrelevant.

Celestial and fiendish creatures are planar counterparts of material creatures.

I'm going to pause here for a moment. Celestial and fiendish creatures are TEMPLATES applied to other creatures. Just as the half-dragon template can be applied to other creatures. I don't think it is a fair comparison to discuss them in conjunction with all outsiders on that basis. That is why I asked for EXAMPLES, and specifically excluded those templated creatures.

Okay, unpausing..

They are not material creatures that have adapted to the outer planes.

Well, it is a quick rebuild template in PF. So it is hard to say where the creature started. But you are right, it is unlikely that it adapted to the outer planes in the traditional sense I gave - generationally. With that said, it does specifically apply a template that adapts it to the outer planes. Just the same if I had originally talked about people living on an acid planet eventually developing acid immunity, but then you bring up black half-dragons as a counter-argument.

Both templates are inherited templates, meaning the creatures are born with it, it can't be applied to an existing material creature (outside special circumstances).

I think you are wrong here in two ways. First, where does it show on the below link that they are BORN with this template? Second, the link specifically says 'rebuild rules' implying that it is rebuilding a creature that is not already a celestial/fiend. So that discounts 'can't be applied to existing material creature'.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/celestial-creature-cr-special

While some planar creatures might be naturalized, most of them seem to have been born from the planes or created from scratch to populate them.

Examples? Celestial dogs? Teiflings? Mephlings? Who are you talking about?

The extraplanar subtype simply didn't exist until 3.5 edition.

Also irrelevant, given what the subtype means.

Before then, all creatures from outer planes were stated as outsiders, even if they otherwise resembled animals, humanoids, etc.

Correct. We agree. After the EP subtype was introduced too. Extraplanar doesn't belong to outsiders, it belongs to ALL creatures that are not on their home plane. By all rights it shouldn't be a subtype, it should be a status effect like paralysis. A status effect meaning the creature can be banished back to their home plane. A status effect that can't be removed by magic, ever.

Whereas 3.5 open the door for extraplanar creatures of other types and made these the default form of life on the outer planes (e.g. the celestial and fiendish templates).

I'm once again going to ask for examples that are not those templates. But if you are talking about humanoids living on the planes, anyone can do that, it doesn't make them outsiders so I don't see your point exactly.

However, the outsider type is still used for any kind of creature from the outer planes (aside from celestial, entropic, fiendish and resolute creatures), even if another type would be equally appropriate.

Such as? When is another type more appropriate. I'm not accepting 'equally', I demand MORE.

Outsiders have absolutely nothing in common with one another besides being extraplanar and immune to spells that don't affect outsiders.

Dragons have nothing in common with one another besides being able to breathe fire and immune to spells that don't affect dragons. And?

Humanoids have nothing in common with one another besides being able to die, reproduce, eat, sleep, and immune to spells that don't affect humanoids. So.

I'm just saying that argument doesn't hold a lot of weight.

Just take any creature that, if it were native to the material plane, would be one of the standard types and make it into an outsider.

Correct.

There's really no reason why outsiders can't have the same variety of types as material creatures can with the associated changes to hit dice, skills, traits, etc except for the arbitrary "anything not from the material plane is automatically an outsider, except for all these numerous exceptions."

That is not what defines an outsider. Also, just because you become naturalized doesn't mean you become an outsider either. It is something you have or you don't. If the type was a dragon, living on a place called 'dragon-place' and a bunch of people moved there and kept to themselves they wouldn't suddenly become dragons, but they may become naturalized enough to not be considered foreigners to the dragons. Not really the same thing.

The native subtype makes three unrelated changes to the outsider type: native outsiders are native to the material plane (which can also be accomplished by removing the extraplanar subtype),

I'm stopping right here. NO IT ISN'T. Native is not the other end of the extraplanar scale. They are unrelated things. It is like saying 'humans are native to X nation (which can also be accomplished by making them paralyzed). It is nonsense.

native outsiders must eat and sleep, and native outsiders can be raised and resurrected. The same result can be achieved by giving a non-outsider type the quality "vulnerability to effects that specifically target outsiders."

What? Are you saying that native outsiders shouldn't be, because they could easily be 'humanoids (outsider)' or something? That is basically what they are already.

There are several types of native outsiders with dramatically different origins: planetouched are the descendants (often many, many generations later) of couplings between mortals and celestials, fiends or genies, while tritons are outsiders who emigrated to the material plane and somehow developed the native subtype. If, as tritons indicate, outsiders can gain the native subtype simply by living and reproducing on the material plane for centuries (without interbreeding with humanoids), then it stands to reason that animals, humanoids, etc can become outsiders by living and reproducing on the outer planes for centuries (without interbreeding with outsiders).

Premise A. Tritons don't reproduce with human[oid]s.
Premise B. Tritons became native outsiders sheerly through naturalization.
Conclusion: If Tritons can do it to become native humanoids, why can't other creatures do it to become outsiders.

Here's what's wrong with that? Your conclusion isn't drawn from your premises. And your premises are faulty. According to the MM "Tritons are thought to originate from the Elemental Plane of Water." But how distantly is unclear. Why they are not there anymore is unclear. For all is known there may have been a previous race of pure tritons that came from the elemental plane of water, but is unknown. For that matter it could be that they DID breed with humanoids (my guess would be merfolk, if true) and became native outsiders that way. But either way, it is unclear and unknown.

Assuming they did become native outsiders through nothing more than naturalization (moving to the material plane and staying there long enough to breed true as native outsiders) isn't much better. The description says it was a long time ago. Presumably the first generation (maybe several) were Outsider (water, EP) and then eventually the EP dropped. Then some time later they became so unrelated to the elemental plane of water that they simply became (native).

And finally, just because we know creatures can go from outsider to native outsider over long periods of time does not mean the opposite is true. Going back to dragons, unless you are born with dragon in you, you are never considered dragon-blooded. They are unrelated things. The outsider is called that because of where it came from, but it doesn't apply universally to all creatures that live there. Living there is not enough of an indicator.

You have to be made of the stuff. Just like living in the elemental planes doesn't make you an elemental, you have to physically be living fire/water/whatever. If a fire elemental was able to somehow breed with a human, and make a Elemental (fire, native) [in 3.5] or Outsider (elemental, fire, native) [in PF] somehow. It still wouldn't change the fact for those humans living in the city of brass, if they kept to themselves and stayed exactly as they were, would remain Humanoid (human). Their type wouldn't spontaneously include Outsider stuff in it. They wouldn't cease being carbon based lifeforms and become energy based. It doesn't work like that. The naturalization I talk about is the EP tag, that you can get fairly easily by being born in a place and your parents and theirs and so on. The native subtype denotes being made of the material plane, not being simply born there.

The child-devil (from my previous post) would have to be physically made of material plane in a way that their devil parent/s generally are incapable of doing. Over time through the generations the devils may be able to incorporate enough material matter into their physiology in order to have a native outside devil baby, but it is unlikely, lengthy, and hard to do. Requires commitment of species and generations, not on a personal scale.

If, as the planetouched indicate, all the descendants of an outsider and a mortal are native outsiders regardless of how many generations removed, then the material plane should be filled with native outsiders.

Why is that? It would be like saying that the material plane should be filled with humans, or half-elves, or half-dragons, or any race simply because they exist. The planetouched description even says, "The effects of having a supernatural being in one's heritage last for many generations." But that means that after time the effect would fade from bloodlines if it is not renewed (two tieflings getting together). Just like any trait in real life evolution may eventually go away unless it is renewed.

As you state, there's no reason why an outsider can't be native to the material plane without possessing the native subtype: they simply wouldn't have the extraplanar subtype.

Well first, even if the devil is born to the material plane doesn't mean it is native to it. It MAY be, but it is hardly a certainty. It would more likely not possess the extraplanar subtype, but even that is unlikely. But in either case, I still fail to see why you say the EP is the defining factor here.

There's no reason why a planetouched or other outsider (native) can't be native to a plane other than the material plane: they would simply possess both the native and the extraplanar subtype on the material plane.

Equally unlikely as the devil. If an aasimar goes to an aasimar colony on Limbo (for example) and has a bunch of aasimar kids, those kids could have kids, and so on for generations. All of those great grand kids would almost certainly STILL be native outsiders, because they are made of the building blocks of the material plane. They may separately be naturalized to Limbo and lose the extraplanar subtype but that process would take a long time too and is not guaranteed. In fact the only reason I am even hedging on this (as I doubt there are very many documented cases) is because I can think of a few planar anomalies like this, mostly involving gods (vecna specifically) being 'born to' specific planes and then being unable to be banished once there - but those are deviations and not the norm.

As such, the native subtype is confusingly named because it can apply to outsiders that are not native to the material plane and does not always apply to outsiders that are native to the material plane, and the word "native" itself is always used with reference to outsiders to indicate which plane they are native to.

The native subtype is only confusing if you use it in another meaning than what it is intended for. This relates back to earlier in this post when I ask if it would be less confusing for you if the word native was instead 'material' as it means the creature is made of the material plane, even if not born there they are still 'of' there. It is meant to be applied generally as types and subtypes do, not specifics. In general devils are Outsider (evil, lawful, baatezu, EP) but have you ever looked at the Kyton (chained devil)? It lacks the baatezu subtype, it is an exception not the rule though.

The outsider type is confusingly named because you can have outsiders that are native to the material plane, which grammatically-speaking means they aren't outsiders.

Which is why the native subtype exists. Generally outsiders that become native to the material plane become Outsider (native) for just this reason. As I said, the term (native) means NOT-outsider to the outsider type. Same as a not-dragon subtype for the dragon type. It is a little odd, certainly, but it properly explains planetouched.

But personally outside of having an odd fixation with the EP subtype and maddenly going around in circles I don't entirely disagree in areas. When I did my retype for my own OGL system, I realized that I don't really need a native subtype - I made existing natives into humanoids or outsiders properly. With that said, I don't disagree with the outsider type - and most versions I have seen that have types even resembling what they do in DnD have similar distinctions.

VelvetViolet · Mar 5, 2014

"PlH" is an abbreviation for the Planar Handbook, not the Player's Handbook or PHB. The revive outsider spell debuted in the Spell Compendium. The extraplanar outsiders in the PlH are given aging tables and repeatedly stated in their fluff descriptions to require food and other basic necessities, but this is not reflected anywhere in their racial traits that still consider them immortal outsiders who don't need to eat/sleep/reproduce.

The celestial creature template in the SRD (not the PFSRD, which cuts out lots of explanatory rules for no apparent reason) states "Celestial creatures dwell on the upper planes, the realms of good, although they resemble beings found on the Material Plane. They are more regal and more beautiful than their earthly counterparts" and ""Celestial" is an inherited template." The template rules state "inherited templates, are part of a creature from the beginning of its existence. Creatures are born with these templates."

The outsider type states "Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence." So material creatures can become outsiders through unexplained processes.

An outsider is defined as any creature that contains the "essence" of a plane other than the material plane, and this implies an unstated rule that "all creatures from a plane other than the material are outsiders" that is broken in the SRD by the existence of planar versions of normal creatures. Planar creatures are explicitly not material creatures that emigrated to the outer planes: they "resemble" their "earthly counterparts" but are just as much born of their home plane as any outsider is. The outsider type, therefore, does not automatically apply to any creature that originates solely from an outer plane.

EDIT: When you're playing a campaign set on the material plane, the creatures you run across range across the full gammut of types. When you're playing a campaign set on the outer planes, however, you run into an odd difference where virtually every living creature you encounter is an outsider despite having just as much physical and intellectual variety as creatures on the material plane do. Its lends a strange air of sameness to a setting that otherwise should seem wildly diverse. It would be exactly like saying that all creatures from the material plane automatically have the "insider type" and not aberration, animal, dragon, etc.

EDIT: Apparently a lot of aberrations like beholders and mindflayers are from the Far Realm, which is technically another plane. Despite this, they're considered aberrations rather than outsiders and aren't even considered extraplanar on the material plane. On a related note, driders are considered aberrations while scorpionfolk (MMII) are considered monstrous humanoids despite both creatures being arachnid centaurs.

The PF bestiaries include several creatures that, if judged by the same criteria as planetouched, should be outsiders but are treated as extraplanar versions of other types (usually aberrations, since most of these examples are conversions from Call of Cthulhu). For example, the Spawn of Yog-Sothoth is an aberration (extraplanar) despite being the offspring of a mortal and a deity/outsider and therefore logically qualifying for the outsider (native) type. This sort of thing is fairly common as the types themselves are poorly defined and whether a monster qualifies for a particular type or not is made on a entirely arbitrary basis that contradicts decisions made for similar creatures (see my note about driders vs. scorpionfolk above).