D&D 5E Asmodeus in 5E Faerun

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
[MENTION=8461]Alzrius[/MENTION] Well, Ed trusts her to speak on his behalf, and she has done that for more than 10 years now, this is quite enough for me (and for many others, including the admins of the FR wiki, since they accept Ed's answers as valid references for info contained in articles).

The fact that it's "enough" for people isn't meeting any sort of objective standard, though, which is kind of what "canonity" is all about, e.g. it's an objective status bestowed by the highest authority, and so doesn't rely on any degree of public acceptance. As the holders of a given intellectual property are the ones who hold that title, the claim of someone else to have any similar status, even if they're the original creators of said property but no longer own it, must therefore be subject to scrutiny.

In this case, the question of "Ed trusting her to speak on his behalf" is itself something that we're being asked to take at face value, at least insofar as the links you've posted go. I'm not trying to be paranoid, nor suggest that there's any level of foul play involved, but I'm a pretty firm believer in "trust but verify." That she says that she's speaking in Ed's voice - to the point of writing that the content of her posts is a reply of his that he's dictating to her - is something that we can't verify (with regards to what's been linked to here, I mean).

Also, from this link : http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1854&&whichpage=1#30938 it also emerges that THO owns a copy of said contract (sure, she could be lying and making everything up, but I mean, what would be the point of that?).

Saying that there's no reason for someone to lie isn't any indication that they're not, unto itself. I'm not saying she is, but at the same time I haven't seen any impetus to give her the benefit of the doubt. It's also odd to consider that she has a copy of a contract that she's not a party to.

Besides, this matter is non neglectable, and the info about Ed's word being canon has been told multiple times and on multiple occasions (as I said, even at a GenCon panel). If it weren't the case, surely Ed or anyone else would have clarified. Especially since he and THO contact each other quite often (she is one of his players in his original world campaign, IIRC).

I think you mean "nonnegotiable," and in that regard I agree; while there can be confusion over the status of something as canon or not, there's a very clear final arbiter, which is the IP holder (though they can be silent on various topics). That said, the issue of something "being told multiple times" doesn't matter in the slightest - canonity isn't a popularity contest, and it doesn't depend on any degree of public acceptance. I also don't think that it's a necessary presumption that Ed would have clarified things if this were not the case, since that creates an expectation that "this must be true, since we'd have been told if it was false."

Perhaps this is something that Ed required as part of the contract...

Possibly, but I think it's better not to assume reasons.

Also, it is not as meaningless as you make it to be. I have made an example in another post. There are matters (basically the major stuff) where Ed will say only what WotC has agreed on (for example, if a deity is back or not), but this is a way for details on other matters, which DMs/players could be interested but that aren't and by their nature wouldn't easily be published in books (for example, the details on how a religious ritual is performed, sayings, typical food, attitudes in certain religious communities or towns/regions towards certain matters or other stuff like that), to have an ''official'' source. Or in this current state of the Realms, with WotC basically refusing to give a broad update of the setting, Ed's word essentially is the only official source that we have (when he doesn't run into NDAs).

Except that that is meaningless, insofar as it has no particular impact besides players wanting details with the nebulous stamp of "official" on them, for their own personal desire to not use "unofficial" material. That's what I was talking about before, with regards to such a contractual stipulation having no particular force or effect in any regard.
 
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Irennan

Explorer
[MENTION=8461]Alzrius[/MENTION] Well, we have these threads (strating from http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1901 and ending with the current http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=1) which are questions posed to Ed Greenwood over 11 years, and all his answers have been delivered by The Hooded One. This has lasted 11 years, if you still doubt THO's word, you could directly ask Ed on his facebook (or ask directly about this matter).

I didn't mean that canon is a popularity contest, when I said that many accept Ed's word as canon I meant it on a side note.

I didn't mean non negotiable, I meant that it is a quite relevant matter, and with the voices running wild, WotC or Ed would have stepped in saying that they are a lie.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
[MENTION=8461]Alzrius[/MENTION] Well, we have these threads (strating from http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1901 and ending with the current http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=1) which are questions posed to Ed Greenwood over 11 years, and all his answers have been delivered by The Hooded One. This has lasted 11 years, if you still doubt THO's word, you could directly ask Ed on his facebook (or ask directly about this matter).

I'm not on Facebook, but I plan on being at Gen Con, and I'm pretty sure that Ed is going to be too (I haven't checked, but he usually is), so if I have a chance, I'll ask him there.

I didn't mean that canon is a popularity contest, when I said that many accept Ed's word as canon I meant it on a side note.

Okay, but I'm honestly puzzled as to why that's noteworthy at all. It doesn't matter who "accepts" something as being canon or not. Canon is canon regardless of whether someone accepts it to be (ditto for that which isn't canon).

I didn't mean non negotiable, I meant that it is a quite relevant matter, and with the voices running wild, WotC or Ed would have stepped in saying that they are a lie.

I don't necessarily agree, since the voices aren't "running wild," and there's no particular impetus for Ed or WotC to post on some fan-site and say what's what.
 

Irennan

Explorer
I'm not on Facebook, but I plan on being at Gen Con, and I'm pretty sure that Ed is going to be too (I haven't checked, but he usually is), so if I have a chance, I'll ask him there.

Sadly, Ed won't be able to attend Gen Con this year:

Ed will not be attending his usual conventions this year.

As some of you may already know Mr. Greenwood has had to cancel many of his scheduled public appearances for 2015. Mrs. Greenwood, his lady wife, turns 80 this year and unfortunately her health isn't as good as it used to be. So while the Boss will still be able to attend some events, he does need to be back home in the evenings to take care of his family. So no overnights for a while.

This means that, for the first time in decades, he will not be attending GenCon and we have had to cancel his planned trip to Madison, WI in November to attend Gamehole Con.

He will still be attending his summer book launch in Toronto for his two new hardcovers (Iron Assassin from Tor and Spellstorm from WotC) on Saturday 27th June at Bakka Phoenix and he does plan to attend Toronto's Fan Expo but only for the afternoon of Saturday 5th November.

We know this is disappointing news but we hope you will understand that Mr. Greenwood's family must come before the fun and joy of hanging out with his friends and fans.

We hope to update you all soon with some happier news & updates on the doings of EG & his sessorium.

Sincerely,

Ed & his minions.

This is an e-mail that all those who subscribed to his website received.

Okay, but I'm honestly puzzled as to why that's noteworthy at all. It doesn't matter who "accepts" something as being canon or not. Canon is canon regardless of whether someone accepts it to be (ditto for that which isn't canon).


Ijust wanted to point out that these info about Ed's word being canon are actually ''a thing'', so to speak, not something that a random poster on Enworld is babbling about.

I don't necessarily agree, since the voices aren't "running wild," and there's no particular impetus for Ed or WotC to post on some fan-site and say what's what.

Well, Ed is giving out info on the post-Sundering realms, if asked and if a NDA isn't met. For example the info about Tiamat and the Tyranny of Dragons in the post that I linked before, or about Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (clarifying on a passage regarding the former in his latest novel, here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=13#468322), or on Halruaa post Spellplague and Sundering here (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=6#464546). These are written not as in ''you can use these for your own game'', but as in ''that's how it is''. In the past, he has explicitly stated when his answers were non canon, like here:
CB, here are answers to your questions (without the questions, in an effort to preserve some privacy from your players). I'm trying to work around Facebook to provide you with answers...and these have to be non-canon; this is what I did in the "home" Realms campaign:[...]
, which is from a Facebook post.
 
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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Sadly, Ed won't be able to attend Gen Con this year:

This is an e-mail that all those who subscribed to his website received.

Well crud, that's awful news. I hope that Mrs. Greenwood gets better soon!

Ijust wanted to point out that these info about Ed's word being canon are actually ''a thing'', so to speak, not something that a random poster on Enworld is babbling about.

Fair enough; I didn't think you were pulling things out of thin air, after all. ;)

Well, Ed is giving out info on the post-Sundering realms, if asked and if a NDA isn't met. For example the info about Tiamat and the Tyranny of Dragons in the post that I linked before, or about Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (clarifying on a passage regarding the former in his latest novel, here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=13#468322), or on Halruaa post Spellplague and Sundering here (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=6#464546). These are written not as in ''you can use these for your own game'', but as in ''that's how it is''. In the past, he has explicitly stated when his answers were non canon, like here: , which is from a Facebook post.

Leaving aside the middle(wo)man issues, which still strike me as rather odd, it's cool that Ed's answering these questions, but I still don't see much in the way of this being unambiguously "canon," per se. That is, this doesn't speak to the issues of what exactly is the nature of that contractual stipulation with regards to whatever he says being "canon" unless WotC says otherwise.

That is to say, these posts seem to be Ed doing what he does: spinning yarns (particularly with regards to his published stories). Likewise, that last post is just a tale from his home game. It's entertaining, and very interesting, but the entirety of the "canon" argument remains "it's in a contract, for which no details or further information shall be provided," as told to us by someone on the internet who says they have Ed's ear.
 

Irennan

Explorer
@Alzrius When answering, Ed always provide the canon answer if possible (i.e. he always does so unless hitting an NDA), so those answers --which concern matters discussed with WotC in the meetings about how the FR would have looked post Sundering, or clarify on products released by WotC-- are indeed canon. That doesn't necessarily imply the vice-versa, but then, if you won't believe THO (who I guess browses Candlekeep and e-mails the posters' answers to Ed because -being hyper-busy as he is- he lacks time to spend browsing forums. Also, since Ed goes to GenCon and so do many Candlekeep posters -there is even a meeting of them since 2012, which Ed partecipates to- you would think that if she didn't have Ed's ear, the matter would have come up in so much time), the only answer could come from Ed himself (he also uses twitter, if you don't have facebook).
 
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Henry

Autoexreginated
Technically, as I understand it, the Forgotten Realms are on lease to TDT/WOTC; there are, stupendously improbable, conditions that would return ot to Greenwood, and he retains certain rights, such as fiat "what I say goes, without review by Wizards" though he had no control over WOTC products. It is a peculiar set-up.

It's pretty much the "George's Driveway" agreement that Star Wars Licensing partners used to have before Disney purchased Lucasfilm:
http://www.quora.com/What-is-likely...r-Wars-business-when-George-Lucas-passes-away

(Look for the George's Driveway reference)

So whether Asmodeus is a god or not is pretty irrelevant to the Realms at large -- until there's some sourcebook that comes out for 5e and says definitively that he is. Or not.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
@Alzrius When answering, Ed always provide the canon answer if possible (i.e. he always does so unless hitting an NDA), so those answers --which concern matters discussed with WotC in the meetings about how the FR would have looked post Sundering, or clarify on products released by WotC-- are indeed canon.

This is tautological; you're saying "Ed provides canon answers, so those answers are canon." I'm saying that's not a sufficient level of reasoning, given that only the IP holder can issue canon carte blanche. You say that he has a contractual grant from TSR/WotC that backs him up; that's more valid, but is likewise to subject to some form of scrutiny greater than "someone on the internet said so."

That doesn't necessarily imply the vice-versa, but then, if you won't believe THO (who I guess browses Candlekeep and e-mails the posters' answers to Ed because -being hyper-busy as he is- he lacks time to spend browsing forums. Also, since Ed goes to GenCon and so do many Candlekeep posters -there is even a meeting of them since 2012, which Ed partecipates to- you would think that if she didn't have Ed's ear, the matter would have come up in so much time), the only answer could come from Ed himself (he also uses twitter, if you don't have facebook).

I've been given no particular reason to believe her, besides her saying that she's a credible source. Again, "trust but verify."

Likewise, saying "this must be true, because it would have been debunked if it were false" isn't a line of thinking that I have any faith in. It creates a presumption of truth that would need to be disproven, rather than presuming that something asserted to be true must be actively substantiated. Your guess is a plausible one, but at the end of the day it's just a guess, and I'm looking for something a little more credible than that.
 

Irennan

Explorer
This is tautological; you're saying "Ed provides canon answers, so those answers are canon." I'm saying that's not a sufficient level of reasoning, given that only the IP holder can issue canon carte blanche. You say that he has a contractual grant from TSR/WotC that backs him up; that's more valid, but is likewise to subject to some form of scrutiny greater than "someone on the internet said so."

I've been given no particular reason to believe her, besides her saying that she's a credible source. Again, "trust but verify."

Likewise, saying "this must be true, because it would have been debunked if it were false" isn't a line of thinking that I have any faith in. It creates a presumption of truth that would need to be disproven, rather than presuming that something asserted to be true must be actively substantiated. Your guess is a plausible one, but at the end of the day it's just a guess, and I'm looking for something a little more credible than that.

Yes, I see your point. I've pointed out where you could directly ask Ed (including his ''questions for'' thread over Candlekeep, even if the answer will be delivered by THO there, and even if she hasn't been posting for about 1 month now).


On a side note about the particular answers that I linked: about Tyranny of Dragons, Ed tried to get WotC'explanation; WotC didn't have one, so he made one and that's as official as you will get on the matter. About the Eilistraee&Vhaeraun answer, Ed simply clarified on a passage in his novel, so that's canon. On Halruaa, I've asked about the state of the region in the canon Realms, and he answered to that (just like most questions are about the canon Realms), according to what WotC has agreed on.

Besides, he does specify when his answers are non-canon and only from his home game and he does check when he can't talk about something or when WotC has already established canon about a certain matter (for example, in 2012, when asked about what the Sundering would have done to specific areas/characters of the Realms, he simply answered ''can't talk/don't know yet''. The fact that he answered now means that those are indeed official --and that he currently is the only source of reliable info on the post-Sundering FR, since WotC isn't really releasing lore about them--).
 
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