D&D 5E [Guidance] What, +1d4 to every check ever?

jgsugden · Jun 29, 2019

Reynard said:
In the rulebook, verbal components must be "chanted" which implies, IMO, something that cannot be whispered.

Most definitions of chant allow for words to be spoken *or* shouted.

Somatic components must be either forceful or intricate, either of which obviates hiding under a blanket or whatever.

Given the number of pervs masturbating on mass transit that get away with it, I think there is room for a wider range of options.

Spells, even cantrips, are powerful and they should come with cost. The constant concerns about casters outshining martials is based on, IMO, the continuous reduction and removal of those costs.

First, people stopped tracking components. Then they gave wizards bonus spells for high Int. Then they made cantrips endless. Then they complained that casters were too powerful and decided to up martial power. It's confounding.

As a player active since the 70s, component tracking rarely gets more than a hand wave of attention, older editions have more bonus spells for high attributes than 5E, and endless cantrips are more about preserving flavor than power.... a wizard feels more like a wizard if they have cantrips to cast when out of real spells than if they have to resort to a sling.

Bacon Bits · Jun 29, 2019

jgsugden said:
And Spare the Dying.

I know you're just being hyperbolic, but Spare the Dying is truly awful. Not only can it be replaced with a skill check (with a chance of failure, but still), not only is it only useful when other characters are dying, the real kicker is that for 5 gp you can buy a Healer's Kit, which contains 10 potions of Spare the Dying.

Light at least replaces an ongoing cost, and torches have the problem of occupying a hand and risking going out.

Stalker0 · Jun 29, 2019

jgsugden said:
Guidance has a greater impact on the game than a lot of cantrips. We better remove it. Oh, so does Eldritch Blast. And Spare the Dying. Light, Dancing Lights and Create Bonfire all pretty much negate the benefits of Darkvision. We can't allow that, either. Green Flame Blade and Shillelagh are way too strong on certain builds. Minor Illusion? What were they thinking! OK, Mage Hand just flat out negates most traps. Nope, nope, nope. Presitidigitation and Thaumaturgy are too hard to spell and way too versatile. Gone....

[10 minutes later] So, you can choose your three cantrip from Blade Ward and True Strike.

There is no spell that gets cast more often in my game than Guidance. Not even close. I bet a 3:1 ratio to the next most commonly casted spell is about right, heck maybe 4:1.

Most of your examples don't work, because the spell being used has alternatives. Spare the dying....medicine. Eldritch Blast, there are a million attacks spells in the game. Light....a torch. Prestidigitation, mostly used for fun flavor.

But a bonus to ability and therefore, skill checks? There are almost nothing in the game that gives a raw bonus to checks. And the one that does grant a +1d4 bonus and is at-will, when in 5e getting even a +1 to anything is a big deal.

So yeah...its pretty damn strong in the context of how much value 5e places on a bonus of any kind, let alone a bonus with this much versatility.

Hussar · Jun 30, 2019

OTOH, in play, an effective +2 generally isn't breaking anything. How often is the difference between success and failure the difference of the Guidance d4? Sure, it's handy, and I'll say that it's something every character that can cast it will have it in my group, but, overall? It's not really doing an awful lot. The Help action generally is more effective and pretty much anyone can do that.

AFAIC, it does what it's supposed to.

Reynard · Jun 30, 2019

Hussar said:
OTOH, in play, an effective +2 generally isn't breaking anything. How often is the difference between success and failure the difference of the Guidance d4? Sure, it's handy, and I'll say that it's something every character that can cast it will have it in my group, but, overall? It's not really doing an awful lot. The Help action generally is more effective and pretty much anyone can do that.

AFAIC, it does what it's supposed to.

Help and Guidance are not mutually exclusive, of course, so in come cases you can double up. There are also lots of situations in which help doesn't apply. You can't help someone pick a lock, for example. But I think you are right about the impact: guidance does not break anything -- especially since almost all DCs in 5E are arbitrarily assigned by the DM anyway.

Stalker0 · Jun 30, 2019

Hussar said:
OTOH, in play, an effective +2 generally isn't breaking anything. How often is the difference between success and failure the difference of the Guidance d4

12.5% (assuming the average 2.5 on the die), unless you had an auto success on the roll.

Further, it increases the chance of getting impossible DCs, which works against the notion of bounded accuracy.

Failing on a roll to disarm a trap, climb a wall, or investigating a key scene often has much greater consequences than missing one attack roll.

Hussar · Jul 1, 2019

Like I said, it's going to matter 1 in 8 times. You will succeed on a skill check 1 time more out of the 8 times you failed. This isn't going to make much of a difference in the long term. You are still failing 7 times. Can't really see how that's changing the game too much.

Azzy · Jul 1, 2019

CapnZapp said:
I like thread necromancy, if performed with skill and elegance.

But that never happens.

Stalker0 · Jul 1, 2019

Hussar said:
Like I said, it's going to matter 1 in 8 times. You will succeed on a skill check 1 time more out of the 8 times you failed. This isn't going to make much of a difference in the long term. You are still failing 7 times. Can't really see how that's changing the game too much.

Then why have bonuses at all if they don’t matter? 5e has gone out of its way to make any plus to the d20 rare, so it seems to think it matters.

Does that mean expertise is also a waste of ink, because for the majority of games out there that don’t go to 9th level, this little cantrip provides the same bonus.

Hussar · Jul 2, 2019

Stalker0 said:
Then why have bonuses at all if they don’t matter? 5e has gone out of its way to make any plus to the d20 rare, so it seems to think it matters.

Does that mean expertise is also a waste of ink, because for the majority of games out there that don’t go to 9th level, this little cantrip provides the same bonus.

You can't have it both ways. You can't on one hand talk about how it's providing a 10% bump (on average) on a d20 roll and then talk about how that's game breaking. If it's only going to matter 1 in 8 times, which is what you said, then, well, that's pretty much precisely how useful it is. Why would you say that 5e thinks it matters? It is a cantrip after all. The writers seem to think that it's not going to impact that game any more than ray of frost or light. I'm just point out that, yup, they're right. It's having about the same level of impact on the game.

I wonder how much of the "oh its game breaking" is theory crafting and how much is confirmation bias. So, tell you what, I'll start tracking it in my game, you track it in yours. How often does it make the difference on a skill check? How much impact is it actually having, not, how much do you feel it has.