D&D 4E d20 Modern 4E - I want it!

[TwinBahamut]

I really would like to see a revised "4E" version of D20 Modern. The D20 Modern Core Book was one of the greatest things ever made by WotC in the 3E era. However, I hope they do a few things to improve the game next time around.

1) Get rid of the emphasis on Urban Arcana. I know D20 Modern started development as an Urban Arcana supplement for D&D, but that doesn't justify putting so much effort into a setting that doesn't really have much precedent or widespread popularity. They would have been better off giving Shadow Chasers, Agents of Psi, and Genetech a bigger role, or putting more effort into futuristic or historical settings earlier.

2) No more books like d20 Future. D20 future tried to do too much with too little space, and really suffered as a result (especially since there was no integration between chapters and some chapters were just terrible). The more focused books, like D20 Apocalypse and D20 future Tech, worked a lot better.

3) Tech levels, as they were used in D20 future, simply don't work. They are too simplistic to even be applicable in campaign design, and are a terrible balancing mechanism.

4) Vehicle/spaceship rules just need to work better next time, particularly from the perspective of how they will actually be used by characters in an adventure or campaign.

5) Next time WotC wants to make a Mecha Crusade project, they really need to hire someone who actually knows more about the mecha genre. The D20 Future mecha chapter was terrible...

 

[PeterWeller]

Yes, very much so.

D&D comes with a lot of setting presumptions, like assumption of the prevalence of magic items, spellcasting, general magic level and so on. d20 Modern made all magic/psionics optional rules, and even using the d20 Past suppliment for a renaissance-era game, magic was still quite optional (and presumed to be a lot rarer than in D&D).

This is a good point, but I still think the D20 Modern book should be more focused around an implied setting based on common modern sci-fi, fantasy, and horror tropes. I think D20 Past, if such should exist, should be a separate product with its own focus and not just a supplement.

Also, Star Wars has a lot of setting presumptions in it, even moreso than D&D. Try to use SWSE to run a campaign set in the Star Trek universe, or a Hard Sci-fi setting, or anything other than science fantasy in the mold of old 30's sci-fi serials as reimagined through the lens of Joseph Campbell's concepts of mythology and it won't work right, or at least need a lot of reworking of classes, equipment, starships, species. . .

Note, I did say, "space opera," specifically because I know SWSE doesn't represent much else, but by filing off the serial numbers (and either dropping or fudging the Force), one can use SWSE for anything from Buck Rogers to Battlestar Galactica, and Flash Gordon to Firefly.

Also, that doesn't necessarily preclude the release of D20 future as its own stand alone product either. In fact, I would love to see a really high quality hard scifi d20 game complete with its own setting.

I just think D20 Modern would work better as a (series of) cohesive game(s) instead of a collection of tool-boxes, but that's just me. I have to admit that I feel this way in large part due to the fact that I want WotC to make a new Gamma World and make it a stand alone game.

 

[Vigilance]

I have to admit that I feel this way in large part due to the fact that I want WotC to make a new Gamma World and make it a stand alone game.

While this is an awesome idea (I love GW), this doesn't get us a system that would likely lend itself mechanically to being used in other genres.

As you mention, Star Wars Saga has a lot of use outside the SW universe.

But Gamma World is D&D with tech and mutations. It's about exploring ruins of a lost civilization for magic (magic in an AC Clark way).

That's not something that would provide much mechanically for folks who want to play The Unit.

 

[PeterWeller]

While this is an awesome idea (I love GW), this doesn't get us a system that would likely lend itself mechanically to being used in other genres.

As you mention, Star Wars Saga has a lot of use outside the SW universe.

But Gamma World is D&D with tech and mutations. It's about exploring ruins of a lost civilization for magic (magic in an AC Clark way).

That's not something that would provide much mechanically for folks who want to play The Unit.

Hey! I don't come to your house and crap on your parade!

No, seriously, you make a good point. Gamma World is very focused, though it hasn't stopped me from using the 4th edition rule book to run everything from Mad Max worlds to complete, balls to the wall, wacky Gamma World. When you drop all the goofy Gamma World specific stuff, though, it does basically become a generic modern RPG.

 

[Greg K]

While I completely agree with your analysis, your example is flawed. NONE of those characters are "team players", they all fill a unique role as a solo hero. You'd have the same problem if you shoved Conan, Gandalf, Robin Hood and Odyssius on a D&D team and told them to go adventure. It wouldn't work.

However, if you go to a story that has a team dynamic (A-Team, Torchwood, etc) and then use how d20 unequals them in terms of stage time, then you have a valid argument.

Part of the problem is that most action/drama shows have only one two true protagonists. What shows do we have as sample for team games in modern era (for purposes of the discussion, I am including those suitable for d20 Future and Westerns? I have listed those that I can think of below. In some instances I could not think TV series (which I think is the closest thing to an ongoing campaign) so I resorted to movies as examples. Also, many of the examples are pushing it, because all of the characters are usually not together at the same, but are split up with thier own different storylines. Furthermore, in some instances, many of the characters are support characters rather than on equal footing with the major protagonist which most players will not accept with their PCs.

Alien Invasion:
-- Threshold (based weakily on memory of one episode)?
-- V
Bughunters: (went to movies for this)
-- Aliens
-- Species

Bodyguards (wasn't sure what to classiffy this as):
--VIP

Cop Drama:
-- Hill Street Blues
-- Law and Order: SVU

Crime/Heist (went to movies since I have never seen The Sopranos and don't know if it would fit)
-- Ocean's Eleven
-- Italian Job

Detective/P.I.

Espionage
-- Mission Impossible
-- MI-5

Horror/ Supernatural:
-- Angel
-- Buffy (pushing it in my opinion for most of both series)
-- Charmed (3 main characters is approaching the party size of the 4 or 5 member gaming group)
-- Special Unit 2 ( again 3 main characters (if we include the gnome dude) is approaching the party size of the 4 or 5 member gaming group)


Lost World
-- The Lost World

Post Apocalypse


Problem Solver
-- A-Team

Space:
-- Babylon 5
-- Battlestar Galactica
-- Firefly
-- Star Trek (the various series)

Space Fantasy (ok I could only think one movie series)
-- Star Wars

Sci-fi other
-- SeaQuest
-- Torchwood

Western:
-- Bonanza,
-- Deadwood
-- Lonesome Dove
-- Silverado

Other
-- Lost

If we push the boundaries for what to use the game for:
CSI: The CSI shows
Medical: House

 

[Ranger REG]

As long as they get rid of the nearly worthless Wealth Level system.

And go back to the GP/$ system? I don't care if we have TurboTax, I'm not roleplaying my Tax Filing during game session.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think the A-Team is probably the best example of a D&D 4 Modern campaign, since all of the main characters are competent in combat and also have something to do outside of combat.

But then, not all "modern" campaigns fit the A-Team model. Or do they?

---

I guess it's still the difference between Intrigue and Action. In Action, a major part of the game system and probably also the game time will be involved with combat, and it's "easy" to find purposes for PCs in combat. Thanks to the round-by-round progress of combat, everybody gets his time to act and shine. A round-by-round progress seems to lack in Intrigue games, since we're often talking
about very different scenes - the hacker cracking into the targets main frame vs. the face asking a few contacts about information vs the forensics guy analyzing blood samples...

 

[Emil]

I guess it's still the difference between Intrigue and Action.

That was the great thing about The A-Team. There was plenty of action, but they also peppered those action stories with several non-action genres.

 

[Emil]

I could be misinterpreting the role of the Controller, but I think there are some examples of the type in the modern world:

Grenadier (throws area-effecting explosives at oncoming enemies)
Combat Engineer (creating/destroying bridges, roads, landmines, IEDs, fortifications)
Forward Air Controller (uses laser targeting devices and radios to direct air strikes)

These are strictly military examples, but I think they're fitting nonetheless.

As arscott pointed out, suppressive fire is a great example of a Controller tactic. I think the Combat Engineer is the perfect example of someone who affects the playing field. He may not be actively "pushing" individuals across the field, but he does have a huge effect on the possible paths the combatants might take (passively "pushing").

 

[Knight Otu]

Modern equipment to remedy the non-magical controller problem, but also helps to blur the line more than it might happen in D&D. Anyone could technically pick up a flamethrower and "control" the battlefield with it. The problems of a combat engineer/trapmaster stay rather similar, however - they need to set up their stuff before they can do their thing, and that takes time.

d20 Modern heroes currently don't start with a power source either, really, unless you make them all martial. They grow into a power source relatively quickly though, with advanced classes. In a way, you could say that the ability scores are the power sources, though. Still, that does hold a few problems in translating to 4E mechanics - in several genres, you want the characters with their power sources from the start, such as Shadowrun-like games. I seem to remember that one of the designers stated that a Use the Force-inspired mechanic could work there, but that could hold problems again with role, as a character may gain abilities that may make him too good off-role (Strong Striker going Mage with Controller powers). I get the feeling that one of Power Source or Role has to give up importance in a Modern game.