Shouldn't most Rituals be free?

[Falling Icicle]

This is a game-balance issue.

Take "Detect Secret Doors", for example. If it only took a moment, and was free, why *wouldn't* you use it, all the time? And if the wizard is detecting all the secret doors, then what good is it to have a ranger or rogue with high perception to find them?

Well, for one thing, making a 10 minute stop to cast a ritual in every single room of a dungeon is not always practical. And there are other ways to prevent characters from "spamming" rituals other than monetary cost. Perhaps Detect Secret Doors could have a limitation on how often it can be cast, a "cooldown" to use MMO termonology. Maybe each time you use it you have to wait an hour or even a day before casting it again.

Rituals cover things that in general can be done via other means, but the ritual method is more assured of actually happening. Giving them a gp cost means you only use them when you *need* them and are willing to pay for it, rather than using them to take away from the value of other classes.

Wizard should not be > than all.

Wizards are not the only class that can use rituals. ANYONE can use them if they get the feat and skill training. And rituals are usually a very ineffecient way of doing things. Yeah, you can unlock doors with knock, but it takes 10 freaking minutes. Just get the Thievery skill and be done with it.

 

[drachasor]

As soon as someone starts giving me seperate pools of money to buy guns and food with I'll agree with you on this.

Obviously that's why I think they should be free as far as gold is concerned. I like that they need props and such of course.

(Btw, "they" = most rituals).

Quips aside, no I don't think that there is any mechanical requirement for them, aside from a design decision on the part of the 4e team that magic should never have any practical day to day use except for the 'Lifestyles of the rich and bloodthirsty' crowd.

That is indeed perhaps an element at play.

If rituals were free, characters would be constantly spamming them any time they thought they might get the tiniest advantage out of doing so.

1. Remember I mean "most" rituals. There are some obvious exceptions.

2. Show me where this is a problem. Show me where they are going to get "spammed", even. In the typical adventure, I certainly don't see it.

In many cases, rituals reduce adventurers' costs, secure valuables, or provide opportunities to find treasure and make money. Having them free would allow adventurers to avoid costs.

Buy new equipment or Make Whole?

Make whole is an obvious exception that the general point I was making, I think. Most rituals (such as Knock) don't reduce costs for the party.

Rent or buy enough pack mules and a cart (or enough henchmen) to carry around 500 - 1000 (up to 2,000, even) pounds of goods or spend 10gp on Tenser's Floating Disk?

Getting the ritual isn't free, it costs 50 gold. Also, such goods are relatively trivial for adventurers to acquire, very often they can get these things for free as part of an adventure if they wanted. (Granted, Tenser's Disk would be one of those things that need some other limitation on it, such as you only being able to cast it once per day).

Hire a courier, an animal trainer to train a messenger pigeon, etc, or cast a ritual for instant communication?

Again, there is a cost to learn this rituals. Communication they provide can be nice, but doesn't hurt the game in any way (and again, who can use them is limited).

Go to a temple to have the dead raised and pay through the nose, or raise the dead yourself?

I am not talking about making it free to have OTHERS do the ritual. Obviously services would have to cost money for believability. As for raising your own comrades, there is already an inherent cost in that (they have to have died). Honestly I do feel that's a sufficient limitation, given the game mechanics on death. Of course, some sort of cost (not necessarily gold) is needed to explain why it isn't used all the time on dead people, but raise dead is clearly one of the exceptions that needs a restriction beyond casting time for believability reasons (not game balance reasons though).

Hired a skilled, educated translator to follow you around or Comprehend Languages?

Someone like that has a lot of useful information available to him that Comprehend Languages would not provide. Also, when you need Comprehend Languages (which is fairly rare), it is unlikely you have the option of a translator.

In many cases, rituals allow adventurers to avoid physical travel, or have easier travel options, better communication, equipment repair, reduces the need for skilled hirelings or services, and so on.

Teleportations might be an exception -- I don't have a current opinion on them. Diviniations are ALWAYS tricky, and the gold cost isn't a big issue there, imho. Most of the rituals don't provide anything that should have a higher cost than just learning the ritual itself and devoting the time to using them. After all, making most of them free does not break or harm the game (if it does, then please provide an example of this harm -- because I don't see it in your above ones, unless I missed something).

AND if you think about religious rituals of the days of yore, they often required 'sacrifices' of a variety of things. Spell components, basically. Silver crosses, bales of wheat, and so on. The GP cost represents this.

That MIGHT make sense for SOME religious rituals. It certainly doesn't make sense for all. It makes much less sense for nature-based or especially arcane-based rituals. Also, many such sacrifices (such as a chicken or cow, say), are not really important enough to represent as a gold cost, imho. More importantly, sacrifices implies they components take up a lot more space than they apparently do, since you can walk around with components for dozens of rituals.

This is a game-balance issue.

Take "Detect Secret Doors", for example. If it only took a moment, and was free, why *wouldn't* you use it, all the time? And if the wizard is detecting all the secret doors, then what good is it to have a ranger or rogue with high perception to find them?

It doesn't only take a moment. It takes TEN minutes. That's a long time, and there are a lot of reasons why it won't get spammed about in a dungeon. You'd only use it where you were pretty sure there was a secret door but couldn't find it -- consider that just 5 minutes lets everyone in the part make many perception checks looking for such things.

Rituals cover things that in general can be done via other means, but the ritual method is more assured of actually happening. Giving them a gp cost means you only use them when you *need* them and are willing to pay for it, rather than using them to take away from the value of other classes.

Wizard should not be > than all.

The time restraint already restricts their application a great deal. I'd note that many people already decry how useless nearly all rituals are. The vast majority of the time, non-magical means will be used because they are quicker and certain enough. Magic will still only be used when it is needed.

I believe that ritual costs should, in anything, be higher in campaigns that focus less on combat. There, the power of rituals is even more powerful since they allow for such a wide range of effects and the power to bypass so many problems. I fear that without significant resource costs, rituals will quickly become fix-it-alls. In combat-heavy, who cares if it doesn't do damage campaigns, you could make a good case for rituals being free or low cost, since they would have less relative value.

Remember that I am only talking about many/most of the rituals in the book. If you have a particular concern about some ritual in a non-combat situation, then you should name it. I might well agree that it is problematic if it were free beyond requiring time to use (it is just I find those rituals the exception rather than the rule).

Using time as a balancing resource may be fine for some campaigns, but really only if the challenges are carefully controlled in time dependence. The restrictions on rituals then become even more situational. The pacing of the campaign then determines the utility of rituals. The gp costs may not be the most elegant, but at least they put a additional consideration and limited resource at play. They also help explain why rituals aren't in constant use throughout the gameworld.

The time rituals require, the resources to learn and acquire them (a feat and gold to buy), and the fact for everyday situations they really aren't useful, is more than sufficient enough to explain why they aren't used all the time. If you think making MOST rituals free would be problematic, then give me some examples of this, because I don't see it.

 

[ravenight]

I haven't looked to closely at the costs, but I think the idea of having these things balanced by requiring components is interesting. The simplification to generic gp-worth of components makes it easier to track, but the idea is still that they are components. You have to plan to carry them with you, you have to spend the gold ahead of time, you have to budget them once you are out away from a ready supply, etc. There are certainly some rituals that don't need to cost anything (though usually those rituals cost very little I thought), but since there are definitely some that benefit from having a cost, I think making the system apply to all rituals is the simplest answer. If you find that players refuse to use one because it is too expensive, just let them do it cheaper or for free.

 

[FourthBear]

If you think making MOST rituals free would be problematic, then give me some examples of this, because I don't see it.

OK, I'll use as my examples the question answering divination spells in the rituals list. Do you really think it is wise to allow both the PCs as well as implicitly every NPC with access to ritual casters, the ability to Commune with Nature, Consult Mystic Sages, Hand of Fate and the like with the only restriction being that of time? If you use the current casting times, they would quickly become absurd. When faced with any mystery or dilemma, why wouldn't people just cast every divination ritual they had? You could place an extremely long casting time, weeks or months, but I think that would render it pretty pointless for the primary focus of D&D: adventuring. At least the gp cost ensures that people using the ritual casting will think seriously before using it.

As far as the inconvenience of casting times, that can often only be an inconvenience for the characters, not the PCs. It's dead easy for the players to simply say "We have the wizard spend all day casting Knock on every door, Detect Secret Door at every juncture and Forbiddance on any area we might want to stay in." Now, if that sounds reasonable to you, that may be fine. For myself, i would rather have the character's first work on using their skills and creativity to solve the issues, rather than going to rituals. Given the utility of traditional D&D magic, I think that it's highly likely that we'll be seeing a lot of rituals that are going to stomp all over skills and mundane abilities.

 

[ravenight]

If you have a particular concern about some ritual in a non-combat situation, then you should name it. I might well agree that it is problematic if it were free beyond requiring time to use (it is just I find those rituals the exception rather than the rule).

The very fact that some rituals might be problematic provides a strong reason for them to have costs in the system. It is much easier for the DM to either reduce/eliminate the costs of certain rituals or to provide the players directly with components worth more than the gold they'd ordinarily be getting, but either only usable on certain rituals, or only on rituals of level X or lower, etc. Depending on the type of game and the general attitude of the DM and his world, different rituals might be more problematic that others, so it is hard to specifically call out particular rituals as being costed wrong - their costs in and of themselves for the basis of a certain economy in the game. If the game you want to run disagrees with the costs, then you should just change them. But do it in specific cases and think about each one, rather than just giving a blanket "all rituals are free to cast".

 

[drachasor]

First I won't to repeat that I have repeatedly say MOST rituals should be free. I've never said that ALL of them should be free (which many people seem to be thinking). Some of them might well require a cost to keep them in line, though alternative restrictions would work for others (such as limiting how often they can be cast).

I think free rituals would work fine in a high magic campaign (although you might need to come up with alternate restrictions for those rituals you don't want used at the drop of a hat, like Raise Dead for example).

However, having hedgemage Bob cast Sending just so that Farmer Joe can find out how his sister in Waterdeep is doing doesn't fit the PoL default setting. The component cost discourages the use of rituals for trivial or mundane matters.

I think the Hedgemage Bob has better things to do with his time than using Sending as a telephone for Farmer Joe. For one, if he does this for Joe then how many other people are going to be bugging him every day of his life to talk to people or for other favors? Also, in a lot of ways it wouldn't be as effective means of communication as just sending a letter.

Honestly, since magic items are significantly less powerful in 4e than previous editions (with the exception of the enhancement three), it doesn't seem like a big deal if a character is spending his gold on rituals or ale instead of magic items.

A lot of magical items are more than powerful enough and they are very expensive as in past editions. Characters don't have a ton of gold to toss around.

I agree with you. I can understand why they put a cost on rituals, since there is not a daily limit on how often one can use them, but I think the other restrictions (time and the often enormous cost of aquiring/mastering the ritual) is enough of a balancing factor for most of them. The rituals I think should have a component cost are those with permanent effects, like Arcane Lock, Eye of Alarm, Raise Dead, Enchant Item, etc. But things like Tenser's Floating Disc, who really cares if you can have one at all times?

Yeah, that's my point of view on those things exactly.

I can see why they don't want people teleporting around frivolously, but the non-epic teleportation rituals can only go to specific destinations and require knowledge of that specific location's sigil sequence. That's more than enough of a balancing factor. As for epic characters, well who cares if they teleport around, they're EPIC for crying out loud. When "once per day, when you die" abilities and slaying archfiends and gods is part of every day life, I don't get why teleportation is considered to be such a big deal.

Yes, I agree that for teleportations that's a pretty big restriction right there.

And I am particularly baffled by the ridiculous cost of the scrying rituals, especially how they only let you observe the location/creature for up to 5 rounds! WTH? I am going to pay thousands of gold and spend an hour on a ritual to be able to spy on someone for 30 seconds at most? I appreciate that they have tried to balance some of the spells that were plot-breakers in previous editions, but I think in some cases they went too far.

Hehe, a vicious DM would make those 5 rounds occur while the target was going to the bathroom. Those are pretty messed up.

I'd much rather have a limit on how many rituals I can cast per day than have to pay money for them. My Wizard in 3e that could cast Tenser's Floating Disc each day for free didn't break the game then, it wouldn't break the game now.

Or limits for individual rituals. Or have your limit and then have some rituals not count. Of course, I think a lot of divinations that give you contact with beings that know a great deal should have "cool downs" like you mentioned that are weeks or a month so that the party is careful about using them. That said, such divinations have always been very tricky.

 

[drachasor]

OK, I'll use as my examples the question answering divination spells in the rituals list. Do you really think it is wise to allow both the PCs as well as implicitly every NPC with access to ritual casters, the ability to Commune with Nature, Consult Mystic Sages, Hand of Fate and the like with the only restriction being that of time? If you use the current casting times, they would quickly become absurd. When faced with any mystery or dilemma, why wouldn't people just cast every divination ritual they had? You could place an extremely long casting time, weeks or months, but I think that would render it pretty pointless for the primary focus of D&D: adventuring. At least the gp cost ensures that people using the ritual casting will think seriously before using it.

I have already said I find such divinations to be an exception. If you still wanted something like that free then you'd have to place some other restriction (such as only allowing them to be cast once per month).

As far as the inconvenience of casting times, that can often only be an inconvenience for the characters, not the PCs. It's dead easy for the players to simply say "We have the wizard spend all day casting Knock on every door, Detect Secret Door at every juncture and Forbiddance on any area we might want to stay in." Now, if that sounds reasonable to you, that may be fine. For myself, i would rather have the character's first work on using their skills and creativity to solve the issues, rather than going to rituals. Given the utility of traditional D&D magic, I think that it's highly likely that we'll be seeing a lot of rituals that are going to stomp all over skills and mundane abilities.

If the PCs can spend days inching through a dungeon and suffer no consequences, then the game has a lot more problems than the cost of rituals. Frankly, in any semi-believably dungeon/dangerous area, you aren't going to have much, if any time to spend doing a ritual. There might be the occasional exceptional case, but that is exceptional. Time IS a critical factor there because creatures live and wander around inside such places.

As for Forbiddance, I suggest you look over the area of effect. If a PC acquires it, then it really isn't that big of a deal if they cast it before they go to sleep, imho. Remember this is something that can only be done at level 20 and above too. In any case, the PCs will have plenty of time to check out an area they are going to rest anyhow (everyone could take 20 looking it over, though they couldn't do a ritual 20 times). So this isn't a big deal.

The very fact that some rituals might be problematic provides a strong reason for them to have costs in the system. It is much easier for the DM to either reduce/eliminate the costs of certain rituals or to provide the players directly with components worth more than the gold they'd ordinarily be getting, but either only usable on certain rituals, or only on rituals of level X or lower, etc. Depending on the type of game and the general attitude of the DM and his world, different rituals might be more problematic that others, so it is hard to specifically call out particular rituals as being costed wrong - their costs in and of themselves for the basis of a certain economy in the game. If the game you want to run disagrees with the costs, then you should just change them. But do it in specific cases and think about each one, rather than just giving a blanket "all rituals are free to cast".

Well, I have repeatedly said from my very first post that all rituals shouldn't be free. I merely said that MOST of them should. I would think it is clear that I am talking about the rituals in the book. Honestly, the number of potentially problematic rituals in the book are very small in number (some of the divinations, raise dead -- potentially, and so forth). The vast, vast majority of the rituals are perfectly fine as free. If you want me to list all the rituals that I think are fine as free or those that I think are problematic as free, then I will. Honestly, I'd think the vast majority would be rather obvious.

 

[JDillard]

Well, for one thing, making a 10 minute stop to cast a ritual in every single room of a dungeon is not always practical. And there are other ways to prevent characters from "spamming" rituals other than monetary cost. Perhaps Detect Secret Doors could have a limitation on how often it can be cast, a "cooldown" to use MMO termonology. Maybe each time you use it you have to wait an hour or even a day before casting it again.

This was a simplicity thing, I would guess. Yes, they could have fifteen different sub-systems for various rituals (some cost, some have cooldowns, some have some other control method). Instead they chose the one that seemed to work best for the whole group. One system, one set of rules, much more simple. I can fit all the relevant bits of a ritual on a 3x5 card and it's very difficult to get into arguments with other players based off of misinterpretation.

Wizards are not the only class that can use rituals. ANYONE can use them if they get the feat and skill training. And rituals are usually a very ineffecient way of doing things. Yeah, you can unlock doors with knock, but it takes 10 freaking minutes. Just get the Thievery skill and be done with it.

True. But wizards get the ritual feat for free and get new rituals for free as well. The cost aspect helps enforce the stuff you mentioned above. Thievery skill is what the designers want you to be using for unlocking doors. But if you don't have a thief, or your thief is unable to unlock it for some reason, then you've got the ritual to fall back on.

 

[Leatherhead]

I am currently considering house ruling most rituals to use healing surges. However I haven't had the time to go over all the of the rituals yet to determine how which ones I can make that way and how many charges I should require per ritual.

 

[drachasor]

This was a simplicity thing, I would guess. Yes, they could have fifteen different sub-systems for various rituals (some cost, some have cooldowns, some have some other control method). Instead they chose the one that seemed to work best for the whole group. One system, one set of rules, much more simple. I can fit all the relevant bits of a ritual on a 3x5 card and it's very difficult to get into arguments with other players based off of misinterpretation.

Again though, the vast majority of the rituals are fine just being FREE. You could make those free and keep the cost on the others. That doesn't change the system at all.

True. But wizards get the ritual feat for free and get new rituals for free as well. The cost aspect helps enforce the stuff you mentioned above. Thievery skill is what the designers want you to be using for unlocking doors. But if you don't have a thief, or your thief is unable to unlock it for some reason, then you've got the ritual to fall back on.

I think we all agree that it is ok if class features give you things/abilities that would normally cost money. In any case, IF you have Knock (which is not a guarantee), it is still far from convenient to use, unlike Thievery. If you have both a Wizard and a Thievery-skilled person in the party, then there would still be plenty of reasons to default to the Thievery-skilled person.