Well okay, but I thought we were talking about 4e D&D. But hey aparently we are talking about the DemonLord57 game where control means something else. Look zippy you think of something else when you think of control. Great for you, but in 4e D&D they invented a definition of control and it includes AoE damage. So when discussing 4e D&D I think that maybe I will stick with there defintion of control and not the DemonLord57 definition. If it makes you feel better don't think it as the definition of control but the definition of the controller role. And AoE damage is specifically under the purview of the controller role and it is not under and is not found under and other roles.
Why is Firestorm the best 19th level control spell?
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Well okay, but I thought we were talking about 4e D&D. But hey aparently we are talking about the DemonLord57 game where control means something else. Look zippy you think of something else when you think of control. Great for you, but in 4e D&D they invented a definition of control and it includes AoE damage. So when discussing 4e D&D I think that maybe I will stick with there defintion of control and not the DemonLord57 definition. If it makes you feel better don't think it as the definition of control but the definition of the controller role. And AoE damage is specifically under the purview of the controller role and it is not under and is not found under and other roles.
Danceofmasks
First Post
Well, Demonlord57 does have a point, though.
I may acknowledge that firestorm is a control spell, but evard's is heaps better.
I may acknowledge that firestorm is a control spell, but evard's is heaps better.
Firestorm is better?
Why is it better? Why is Astral Storm better? Damage?
Is Astral Storm better than Meteor Swarm? It depends. It depends on what Paragon Path and Epic Destiny you took. In short, it depends on all the factors that eventually end up on these powers when they're used. You can't say that a pizza is good until you actually eat it. Comparing pizza quality from pizza stores based on the size of their ovens is silly.
Why can Meteor Swarm be better than Astral Storm? Well, Meteor Swarm can be doubled up on or made into an encounter power using the Archmage destiny, and you can add damage to it from Bloodmage. Moreover, a Wizard has no second primary attribute, so he can raise Int as much as he likes with fewer repercussions. If you take Wis or Con or Dex or whatever, you'll be about the same as a Devoted Cleric seconding Cha, but your defenses are better. A Devoted Cleric doubling up on Wis and Cha is junking 2 attributes and none of his primaries deal with AC. He needs chainmail just to keep close to your AC, and he'll probably be inferior anyway. His Ref defense is going to be abysmal and there's just no helping that.
Well then, incidental attribute thingies aside, what CAN you do with Meteor Swarm? Let's twink it a little bit just to see how far it can go. A "normal" level 30 monster should have about 300 HP. We don't know because there aren't actually any standard level 30 monsters yet.
Let's burn an AP, use Bloodmage, and Bolstering Blood for 2d10. We'll also use Spell Recall to double up on Meteor Swarm, and Astral Fire to boost the damage by +3 more. We'll cede Spell Accuracy - one feat, to be able to use it easily, though that's not really necessary all the time. We can twink it more with Staff of Fiery Mastery, but that's a little hard to figure, so let's leave that out.
With just this, we deal 16d6+26+6+4d10+10 (ongoing). That's about 120 damage to the AoE effect - nearly enough on its own to bring every enemy within the target area to bloodied status. You can regain Meteor Swarm with Shape Magic, too. Or, you can make Meteor Swarm into an encounter power with Archspell and then regain it within the round with Soul Burn and blast the enemy twice using that combination. Then use Shape Magic to regain Soul Burn and do it again next encounter, then use Destructive Salutation and Meteor Swarm on the encounter after that.
I can imagine that using these factors, a Wizard can solo a level 30 encounter with Standards and minions all by himself.
Same with Firestorm. Closing Spell is comparable, and a Wizard can combo his Closing Spell with Evard's to layer on some serious AoE pressure, and he can choose his element type to get by resistances. A Wizard's AoE suite is unrivaled. Without using another daily power, he can layer Closing Spell, Combust (or whatever), Frostburn, and Winter's Wrath to get some serious AoE damage pressure going on, and then keep it on in between casting these spells with boosted Thunderwaves and Scorching Bursts
For a Devoted Cleric, we get Firestorm, Enthrall (or Thunderous Word), Mantle of Glory, and nothing (because none of the 7th level encounter powers for Clerics have AoE options).
Seriously, the Cleric's lagging here. Firestorm's good, but it's not good enough to make that up.
Why is it better? Why is Astral Storm better? Damage?
Is Astral Storm better than Meteor Swarm? It depends. It depends on what Paragon Path and Epic Destiny you took. In short, it depends on all the factors that eventually end up on these powers when they're used. You can't say that a pizza is good until you actually eat it. Comparing pizza quality from pizza stores based on the size of their ovens is silly.
Why can Meteor Swarm be better than Astral Storm? Well, Meteor Swarm can be doubled up on or made into an encounter power using the Archmage destiny, and you can add damage to it from Bloodmage. Moreover, a Wizard has no second primary attribute, so he can raise Int as much as he likes with fewer repercussions. If you take Wis or Con or Dex or whatever, you'll be about the same as a Devoted Cleric seconding Cha, but your defenses are better. A Devoted Cleric doubling up on Wis and Cha is junking 2 attributes and none of his primaries deal with AC. He needs chainmail just to keep close to your AC, and he'll probably be inferior anyway. His Ref defense is going to be abysmal and there's just no helping that.
Well then, incidental attribute thingies aside, what CAN you do with Meteor Swarm? Let's twink it a little bit just to see how far it can go. A "normal" level 30 monster should have about 300 HP. We don't know because there aren't actually any standard level 30 monsters yet.
Let's burn an AP, use Bloodmage, and Bolstering Blood for 2d10. We'll also use Spell Recall to double up on Meteor Swarm, and Astral Fire to boost the damage by +3 more. We'll cede Spell Accuracy - one feat, to be able to use it easily, though that's not really necessary all the time. We can twink it more with Staff of Fiery Mastery, but that's a little hard to figure, so let's leave that out.
With just this, we deal 16d6+26+6+4d10+10 (ongoing). That's about 120 damage to the AoE effect - nearly enough on its own to bring every enemy within the target area to bloodied status. You can regain Meteor Swarm with Shape Magic, too. Or, you can make Meteor Swarm into an encounter power with Archspell and then regain it within the round with Soul Burn and blast the enemy twice using that combination. Then use Shape Magic to regain Soul Burn and do it again next encounter, then use Destructive Salutation and Meteor Swarm on the encounter after that.
I can imagine that using these factors, a Wizard can solo a level 30 encounter with Standards and minions all by himself.
Same with Firestorm. Closing Spell is comparable, and a Wizard can combo his Closing Spell with Evard's to layer on some serious AoE pressure, and he can choose his element type to get by resistances. A Wizard's AoE suite is unrivaled. Without using another daily power, he can layer Closing Spell, Combust (or whatever), Frostburn, and Winter's Wrath to get some serious AoE damage pressure going on, and then keep it on in between casting these spells with boosted Thunderwaves and Scorching Bursts
For a Devoted Cleric, we get Firestorm, Enthrall (or Thunderous Word), Mantle of Glory, and nothing (because none of the 7th level encounter powers for Clerics have AoE options).
Seriously, the Cleric's lagging here. Firestorm's good, but it's not good enough to make that up.
keterys
First Post
Roxlimm... I may be misunderstanding, but those don't sound like any reason that meteor swarm is better. They'd all be just as effective, if not more effective, using astral storm.
That is to say, if you gave the wizard an Int-based Astral Storm, would anyone 'prepare' Meteor Swarm over it?
That is to say, if you gave the wizard an Int-based Astral Storm, would anyone 'prepare' Meteor Swarm over it?
If you gave Wizards an Arcane Astral Storm, it would be borderline broken, possibly completely broken. Did you see what I did? I made Meteor Swarm an encounter power recoverable twice a day! Can you imagine Astral Storm as an encounter power you can double-use twice a day?
Let's plug in the values.
12d10+26+6+4d10+10 (ongoing). You would deal 130 damage that isn't even easily resistible over a wide area, and every turn you sustain minor twice and get another possible 108 damage a turn on that. Why don't you just write "I win" on the power? And you do this twice a day? And you can Astral Storm every encounter on top of Legion's Hold daily, Blackfire, Acid Storm, and Combust?
That's insane.
Astral Storm as an encounter power. I shudder just thinking about it.
Let's plug in the values.
12d10+26+6+4d10+10 (ongoing). You would deal 130 damage that isn't even easily resistible over a wide area, and every turn you sustain minor twice and get another possible 108 damage a turn on that. Why don't you just write "I win" on the power? And you do this twice a day? And you can Astral Storm every encounter on top of Legion's Hold daily, Blackfire, Acid Storm, and Combust?
That's insane.
Astral Storm as an encounter power. I shudder just thinking about it.
Evards is usually a little better for what a wizard will want to do, but firestorm is a better AoE damage spell and while its continuing damage is relatively small since it does not effect the party they can sit in it and either the opnents have to retreat and trade ranged attacks or its a AoE damage over time spell hitting them fairly hard.
Evards sounds cool and in some situations is better but it effectively blocks an area for the party as well. If played right the effect will be worse on the opposition than on the party, but it can really turn against the party in a dynamic fight.
Thing is most people aren't arguing that wixards are worse controllers over all, just that the cleric having better AoE damage spells when not a controller seems screwy.
While impressive its totally lame that you need a specific build in order to beat out a class with another role in one of your primary roles, dealing AoE damage. And also its level 30 you can turn these things into encounter powers. The game is kind of over at level 30.
bardolph
First Post
Why not actually build a 19th level Wizard and a 19th level Cleric, and compare their "Controller" capabilities as whole character, rather than fixate on a single power?
I think a good test is to assume that you already have a party consisting of 19th level Paladin, Warlord, and Rogue, and try to figure out which character would make the best 4th: a 19th level Cleric, or a 19th level Wizard?
I think a good test is to assume that you already have a party consisting of 19th level Paladin, Warlord, and Rogue, and try to figure out which character would make the best 4th: a 19th level Cleric, or a 19th level Wizard?
Danceofmasks
First Post
Well ... most people don't realise just how evard's works.
1) It doesn't block stuff for the party. Really. It only tries to grab people when you sustain it, so you can walk through the difficult terrain just fine. You don't want to base an immobilised mob anyhow. They'll just shrug and hit you.
2) Saving throws happen at the end of a creature's turn. So .. after they make the save, you sustain the effect and grab them again. That means you'll have to miss for them to be free of the effect. Sustain the evard's first ... if you miss, ready a thunderwave for when they come out (your initiative then gets set to before their turn) ... they get to see daylight momentarily before ending up back in the middle of the effect. If they use their standard action to get out, thunderwave them back in next turn, then sustain.
3) So some mobs get free. You don't care ... denying half the opposition their attacks for a single round > firestorm.
On a build that maxes int, evard's can one-man an entire encounter.
Well it creates a area of difficult terrain which means the party gets slowed moving into it, and if you sustain it the party will be attacked if they go into it. If for some reason the party needs to or wants to get past that area it has just had a negative effect on the party. Any time a party member is somehow moved into the zone the wizard has to decide whether to drop the spell just leaving it as difficult terrain for a turn or attacking a party member.
I'm not saying it isn't bad assed because it is fairly cool, just that any time you lay down terrain and effects in a area that sticks around it is a fairly situational use since the party needs to move around as much as the enemy does. You can build a party who capitalizes on this with ranged attacks a plenty but if you have a melee striker and a defender, they kind of need to move into position to do there job and now a hentai monster is blocking there path.
Maybe I play in weird games but the party is trying to get to the monsters as often as the monsters are trying to get to them and many times the party is trying more often. Wall spells and other blocks can help but they frequently just get in the way of the party.
I guess we will need more eladrin.
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