Anyone else wonder why they didn't combine the 3.5 spell system and the 4th edition..

I am personally glad the 3.5 spell system is not in 4E, whether I switch over or not. The 3.5 spells were so full of garbage, from illogical and unbalanced material components, to overpowered spells, that frankly I see little difference between a high level 3.5 and 4e wizard. All high level wizards took the same spells, there were not enough of the superbroken ones to go around.

The 1E to 3.5E spell systems did not work. I don't think the 4E one is great, but I'll wait a couple of years and a bunch of expansions before I decide for sure. I want some things, like long-lasting invisibility, flight, and polymorphing in the rules, as that is what magic is supposed to do, in my opinion, but I don't want it to overshadow the non-magic types as it has done since 1E.
 

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This turns me into Conan the Caster...just another dumbed-down damage dealer with a few nifty tricks. Just like everyone else.

As opposed to 3.5, where a wizard could essentially overshadow every other member of the party? It might have been fun for the guy playing the wizard, but it certainly wasn't fun for the guys playing the other classes.
 

Short answer? no. I have to admit that I like the new system. I also realize that to put in every spell from 3.5 into the current edition's core books would have increased the size dramatically to the point where the wizard alone would have taken up a good 100 pages on powers.

I do agree that I miss some of the spells from 3.5. I also wish there were at least more rituals in the PHB. I understand that there will be more out in the future, but its a bit of a shock to go from volumes of spells/powers down to 3 books again. So I can see where you are coming from here.

We've rarely used the counterspell abilities. While interesting on paper it was easier in the end to just unleash a thermal nuclear assault in the first few rounds that would kill the enemy spellcasters than bother letting them try to cast in the first place.

There's also the problem that might arise that if you brought every other class up to par with what the 3.5 spell system allowed wizards and clerics to do (and to a lesser extent psions/sorcerers/etc) then you may as well have just made a classless system, and opened the spells/prayers/powers to everyone (Not that it wouldn't have been an interesting way to go, mind you).

I admit that without the breadth of spells fully available, certain things (Like the hold person kidnapping) would have to be resolved with good old fashioned elbow grease from the whole party or NPC group instead of being resolved with a solitary spell alone. Certain functions do still exist though for quiet subterfuge. Sleep for example. Other than that its up to DM's currently as to if the group can sneak up to knock out a guard/grab the NPC and toss them into a cart/ etc.

I personally don't like the 'dumbed down' argument, as I've never had to put a helmet and mittens on and clap like an imbecile to effectively use any powers in 4e, but to each his own I guess.

But this is just my opinion on the matter since the question was posed. I think the previous suggestions were indeed pretty good. Bo9S and the PHBII are about as close as one could get to upping the martial classes fun levels to those of spellcasters.
 

Casters had to be nerfed. There was no problem that couldn't be solved by magic, making the non-caster classes pointless. Worst case scenario was having to wait 24 hours before you could solve a problem.

It was acknowledged in 3e that battlefield control was the wizard's greatest ability. Controlling movement on the battlefield is still a big part of the 4e wizard's repertoire but it's not 100% control like the pre-4e Wall of Force. That's a good thing, magic should help but it shouldn't be an auto-win.

In the Hold Monster capture situation you describe, I regard that as not very good encounter design. The problem is solved by a single spell. D&D is supposed to be a team game, what's my barbarian contributing? Better if the monster was KO-ed using nonlethal damage, then everyone can contribute.

Celtavian said:
Did not many people use illusions for drawing out ambushes?
Ghost Sound. 4e PHB, page 158.
 

re

This is pretty interesting. I played/DMed 3rd edition on a regular basis since the day it was released to the day 4th edition was released. No-one in all those years made a single attempt at counterspelling. Counterspelling rarely seems to be worthwhile.

If you found useful ways of using it, then I'm impressed. However, the truth of the matter is that nearly everyone else didn't, so there's little point in it appearing in 4e. For me, it was kind of a good idea, and I remember being excited about it at first, but I think it was just totally broken in implementation.

A question: were you playing it as written, or did you houserule it in any way?

No, I didn't house rule it. I play in a campaign with an average of six players. I write up my own encounters and create villainous groups with particular spell combinations and cooperative tactics in mind.

For example, I often design encounters to take into account of terrain. So you have a party with a limited amount of resources trying to make it to the big bad wizard. They have perhaps a wizard trying to outthink your party wizard and priest.

Enemy wizard A plans to cast a hold spell on Alliance Fighter B as enemy fighter C closes on Alliance Fighter B. The ready action casts a hold spell. If the fighter misses, he is getting coup de grased and ended right there.

So the party wizard or priest had best be on their toes for such tactics. Because whatever the players use for tactics, I use for the monsters.

This is just one example of a common tactic alot of players have used. The thing is when it is used against the party they die. The only way to counter this activity is to hope you win initiative, close the distance on the wizard, kill the fighter before hand, or have a Remove Paralysis or counterspell action ready.

I've done this with parties trying to close the distance while be nuked to high heaven by an enemy caster. Without the counterspelling, they would have been nuked to bits. Usually a few dispels and fireballs can counter the other parties fireballs long enough to close the distance.

I spent time planning encounter distance and tactics to use against the party as well as tactics they can use to counter.

I was a good caster in 2nd edition. I could use spells with a great deal of acumen. But 3rd edition really took the spell variety to a new level that I liked.

Our party fought a demonic army with a twelve suped up mortal hunter, arrow demons. I came up with the strat to defeat them using Wind Walls, teleport strike attacks, key Dimensional Anchors, Anticipate Teleport to hold off the rest of the demons for a few rounds, and Walls of force to seal off the battlefield from other melee being able to provide support for the regular arrow demons.

We set up a return base that prevented scrying so they couldn't find us.

My DM felt real comfortable creating very formidable encounters because he knew he had to provide more than "monsters straight ahead" to beat us.

He even formed a combat unit of Dethbringers whose sole function was to us the Greater Dispel to counter our healers and mages. That was a tight fight.

So both the players and the DM used the counterspell action to great effect.

One thing we did do to make such tactics effective was limit the influx of magic items. We found the game became unwield and difficult to run as characters gained more and more outlandish magic items that made them immune to everything from grappling to death spells.

Magic item inflation was the single biggest flaw of 3rd edition. I hope they did something to correct this in 4th edition. From what I've seen they did. Players having access to magic items that make them immune or effectively immune to attacks damage a DMs ability to create challenging encounters.

Magic item inflation killed more of our campaigns than just about anything else. So we started reigning in magic items and trying to not to release too many immunity or resistance based items into the game.
 
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I totally get what the OP is saying, even though I myself really like 4e. It definately has done a lot for non-casters.

I've been considering letting spells stay in spellbooks (no disapearing ink for me) and then let the wizard select any spell he wishes from his book using the level for each slot dictate the maximum level of the spell memorized. Sure... it makes sense that most of the time he'll be using his highest level spells for each slot, but he has the choice. I've also considered letting arcane casters scribe spells (of a level they can cast) from found spellbooks. That would give them a larger selection of powers, and it would wreck retraining a little, but it makes sense enough to me that it might be worth it.

I think we will see lots of interesting spells that can be used creatively as time goes on. I hope so. I was no fan of vancian magic, but I did enjoy creative spell casting.
 

Personally? I don't like the new 'magic' system. It doesn't feel like magic. I've avoided playing 4e spellcasters, and will continue to do so. (With the exception of the Warlock, for various reasons - the biggest being that the 4e magic system actually fits the flavor of the class very well.)

But I didn't personally like 3e's magic system (or 2e's, for that matter) much better. It was terribly complicated, required a lot of book-keeping, and in some ways restrictive and/or nonsensical (you must get X amount of rest - gods forbid you get attacked in the middle of the night, once you cast a spell you forget it until the next day, etc).

Personally, I love point-buy magic, such as True Sorcery by Green Ronin. Unfortunately, it was just as complicated, if not more (nothing like busting out calculus in the middle of a fight to figure out your spell). But the freedom - I loved that. But it would have in no way, shape or form meshed with 4e.

So... I am disappointed, yes, and wishing I could figure out an alternate magic system. Unfortunately, I haven't come up with anything yet. :(
 


re

Spells usually have verbal components - and are thus not more silent then subdual damage. You could use Silent Spell metamagic feat - or cast Silence...

The way I run verbal components would never compare to a beat down necessary to do subdual damage. Did you play high level DnD? It's real hard to beat down a high level character with subdual damage in a few rounds.


I disagree that it will limit them. There is still a ton left to explore. The PHB is what - 288 pages? And still people have ideas for more powers that _are_ different. And it's not like they can't add some new tricks. (Look at the Artificer play-test preview in Dragon - a new keyword is added, and a new way to "activate" powers is introduced...).

We'll see. What I saw was recycled mechanics and the same do 1dSomething damage and something else. Putting a new name on a different mechanc is not creativity, it's like South Park said about Shymalan and his penchant for twisting old plots.


The trick with all classes is that they require intelligence to play them effectively in the group. How do the unique tricks that the Wizard brings to the table helpful to the party? How do they work in concert with the other unique tricks of the party members? There is a lot of emergent complexity in the interaction of the powers and the battlefield.

I'll see how this plays out. I didn't notice the complexity so far. To me complexity is like chess...play/counterplay.

This game seems very direct and lacking in complexity, by design.


I must say, my creativity from the DM and tinkerer point of view was sparked by the new system. The creation of new powers, and even more so the creation of new monsters is very interesting. The fundamental rules are really simple, but this gives you only the "shell" of the power or monster.
For monsters, for example, you have the basic numbers jotted down, but then the real design process begins -what makes this monster unique? What powers do I give it (and what powers do I make up in the process) to give it the right feel?

The monsters are interesting. They don't seem to have the same limitations as the players.


In my experience, advanced mechanics got always in the way of my store-telling. When I was making an adventure for 3E, Arcana Evolved or Iron Heroes, I spend a lot of time creating the monsters or NPCs statistics, instead of spending time on crafting the story. Once I found the Iron Heroes "Villain Classes", things got a lot easier...

Strange. For me the mechanics helped my story telling. I was able to think up stories that revolved around particular spell uses.

I started an adventure recently by imprisoning the fighter and forcing the party to do what the imprisoner asked to get him to release the fighter. I loved thinking of new ways to use spells to trick my players.

Like the old tactic in Ravenloft where Strahd has the party wasting spells and time on an illusion before he actually attacks. Caster versatility did alot to spice up my campaigns.

But I admit this was somewhat unfair to melee players. That is why I like what they did for melees in 4th edition.

I know some people use existing monster statistics and try to spin an adventure from that (especially from the spell-like abilities not relevant in encounters), but this method did rarely work out so well for me. It didn't help me craft the real details of the story, especially if the abilities that sparked my idea would require other aspects from the monster that it lacked...

I did alot of monster adaptation in terms of skills and abilities. 3rd edition wasn't perfect, but it got my creative juices flowing in a good way. It left alot of open ground and no mechanic was too strange to work in it.

I didn't have problems tracking durations either. So not sure why they got rid of spell durations for the most part.

When I say lacking creativity, I mean more on the player side of things. As in I find that looking at my character, I have a very few, simple things I can do. I just do them and hope they work. There isn't much interplay between spells like their used to be.

Like the old Cloudkill imprison in Wall of Stone tactic. Or Enervate followed by dominate monster/i].

I'm not sure if you played much high level DnD. But high lvl 3rd edition DnD was very interesting if you put your work in. But it wasn't so good for a group that wanted to run stock modules.

So I understand the moves they made to change the game. It was unwieldy and time consuming at high levels. You had to put alot of work in for a good payoff for the party.

This simplification should extend alot of players campaign life. It just doesn't add much to what I was doing. I guess it comes down more to personal tastes and I don't fall into the normal area of the curve of whatever study they did to determine what people wanted from DnD.

I would have liked them to move to a more complex platform for melee combat that finally included martial arts and opposed weapon skills rather than what they did. I guess it fits the flavor of DnD in that ease of play was always a factor in its popularity and longevity.
 
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The mere fact that you don't have to worry about which dozens of different spells you are going to pick every day is a huge advantage over 3.X - that made running high-level spellcasters a huge drag.

One man's junk another man's treasure...

I can't imagine playing a wizard in 4e because they seem so dull by comparison.
 

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