Anyone else wonder why they didn't combine the 3.5 spell system and the 4th edition..

I agree with all the praise for 4e's streamlined and tactically-deep system. I think Celtavian's central point still stands, though. 3.5 used a huge, sprawling subsystem (or several subsystems, really) for magic, which some people really enjoyed exploring and exploiting, which 4e has a single, standardized power structure for all classes that focuses very, very heavily on damaging and positioning-related combat abilities. They fixed something that, for some folks, wasn't really broken, and seriously cut back on an aspect of the game that was a major draw for a certain type of player.

So, really, everybody's right, here.

(For the record, I never liked Vancian magic in general or D&D 3e's take on it in particular. But I'm also not too excited by 4e's extreme standardization or unabashed dedication to simple, single-purpose, combat-focused powers. They're both fun, sure, but neither's really ideal for me.)
 

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The mere fact that you don't have to worry about which dozens of different spells you are going to pick every day is a huge advantage over 3.X - that made running high-level spellcasters a huge drag. So the smaller selection is fine by me.


Blessings for some become curses for others. Some players out there (particularly those who loved to play spellcasters in previous editions of the game) loved the vast array of spells at their disposal. Spell selection was part of the fun for them. No wonder they are disappointed.

"Even one thing's polar opposite has itself a polar opposite."
 



Getting rid of the magic system was one of the best, and one of the gutsiest decisions they made in 4e. Im glad they finally cut that cord.

Designers have been trying to balance mages with the other classes for 30 years now. Someone working on the game finally had the guts to say it was impossible with the magic sub-system in play and then DO something about it.

And I actually think 2nd and 3rd edition highlighted this weakness.

1e, with the Unearthed Arcana and optional PHB backmatter in play, had wonkiness for EVERYONE (Cavaliers, Full Plate, Barbarians, crazy ability scores, crazy multi-classing, Bards, Psionics).

While 2e and 3e reigned in most of the fever-dream qualities of 1e, they left that magic system in place.
 

I've not found it to be so, considering:

1) the limited number of uses for spells as opposed to unlimited skill usage.

This is a theoretical limit I haven't seen exploited. The properly prepared wizard always seems to have more than enough, knocks, comprehend languages, invisibilities, etc. on scrolls, in wands etc. to deal with situations as they come up. There are only so many situations DM's tend to throw at players - A DM has to be consciously trying to stymie the wizard - and if he's consciously trying he can easily stymie the rogue too (and it's actually easier: extremely high open lock DC - fatal for the 3e rogue, no issue for the 3e wizard).

2) the tight definition of spells compared to skills, which really have broader, more open definitions.

This is another one of those "in theory" comments. In practice DM's seem to always give magic much more leeway than skills because of the "it's magic" factor. Taking a look at many of the discussions even on this board - "it's magic" gets a pass while skill use is always met with - well can this really be done?

3) magic has limitations in a properly designed setting that intelligently considers the implications of the D&D rules that creates opportunities for skill users.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying settings limit magic use in ways that allow opportunities for skill use? If so then not in the Forgotten Realms where magic reigns supreme or Ebberron where low level magic is common enough that it can displace many otherwise useful skills.
 

1) the limited number of uses for spells as opposed to unlimited skill usage.
The real limitation is the number of meaningful opportunities to use spells/skills. Saying a thief can pick a lock an unlimited number of time per day is meaningless unless the party encounters an unlimited number of doors during the adventure.

2) the tight definition of spells compared to skills, which really have broader, more open definitions
My experience is the exact opposite: it was far more common to see spells used in creative/non-standard ways.

3) magic has limitations in a properly designed setting that intelligently considers the implications of the D&D rules that creates opportunities for skill users.
Trying to the keep all of that in balance is frankly, a pain in the ass. The Magical Arms Race of measures and countermeasures (even reading about play like that in SepulchraveII's terrific Wyre Story Hours was too much for me). To use a comic book analogy; it's constantly trying to find something for Green Arrow to do when Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter are also in the scene. I prefer a system that makes my job as DM easier, not harder.

I've run multiple campaigns above mid level, one to the 22nd, and the rogue and the monk had plenty to do with their skills.
You're a better man than I, Gunga DM.

I think it's faulty thinking to consider only a limited set of skills when entertaining solutions to a problem.
Recognizing that there are a core set of heavily used skills isn't faulty thinking.

Further, it's inflexible on the GMs part to not consider the tasks which a character would be good out when designing adventures.
Agreed, but that isn't what we're talking about. We discussing whether the magic system should render the skill system obsolete, and if it does. Which it does.

If a character is good at carpentry, someone would seek them out for a task related to that skill.
I'm sure this comes up a lot in Jesus Christ Superstar d20 (and I would so play a campaign of that). And again, we're not debating whether carpentry has a place in the game, we're debating if it's made useless by the existence of the Fabricate spell.

Finally, the player should be proactive in thinking of ways that they can leverage their unique skills in creative ways to help the group achieve success.
Sure. That's how my group plays. But it doesn't change the fact the spells eclipse skills in 3.5. They are simply more powerful assets, even in 'creative' play, and there limitations are both too easy to circumvent as a player and too difficult to enforce as a DM.
 
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My biggest disappointment with 3rd Ed was that they practically cut & pasted it from previous editions.


Word to that. Frankly, 4E is what I wanted out of 3E (I think I was a bit of a voice in the wilderness in this regard - I was desperately keen to see all the sacred cows that 4E kills killed). Of course having dealt with 3E for eight years, elements of 4E disappoint or underwhelm, but still...

Personally I think we could have had a workable hybrid, where casters had a few "at-will" spells and a larger number of "selected" spells, and where non-caster types had various extensive at will or conditional abilities in a vaguely Bo9S style, but I think it would have been extremely hard to balance properly, and probably ended up making it so that casters were always better than non-casters again.
 

One man's junk another man's treasure...

I can't imagine playing a wizard in 4e because they seem so dull by comparison.

Right. Also, people who felt overwhelmed by options in 3.x could always play a sorcerer. (You wouldn't know the class existed from the comments in this thread and those like it.)
 

Right. Also, people who felt overwhelmed by options in 3.x could always play a sorcerer. (You wouldn't know the class existed from the comments in this thread and those like it.)

People in this thread are talking about the problems with the 3e spell system; those problems are much more prominent with a wizard than a sorcerer.

Heck the 4e wizard is essentially what a 3e sorcerer was - except with ritual casting to take on non-combat applications.
 

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