CustServ on "What is 'an attack'?"

[Hypersmurf]

All salmon are fish but not all fish are salmon

Sure, but what Cody said was "A power is an attack if the heading reads [Class] Attack [Level]".

No 'some' qualifier about it. When is it an attack? If it's an Attack power.

And he goes on to agree that Wall of Fire, which has no Attack line but is an Attack power, is an attack.

So according to the CustServ answer, at least, there's no 'All attacks are Attack Powers, but not all Attack Powers are attacks' relationship.

-Hyp.

 

[zgrose]

Wall of Fire attacks, but is not an attack. Probably what he meant to say.

Either way, ask him what happens if you drop the target in lava. Aren't you really just trying to determine if the target is invulnerable to damage?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Wall of Fire attacks, but is not an attack. Probably want he meant to say.

... but very different to what he said.

Either way, ask him what happens if you drop the target in lava. Aren't you really just trying to determine if the target is invulnerable to damage?

No, he's unaffected by attacks. Attacks do all sorts of things other than damage; what I want to know is what counts as an attack.

CustServ's answer to me wasn't "powers that require an attack roll", or "powers that have an attack, hit, or miss line". CustServ's answer to me was "attack powers".

-Hyp.

 

[ST]

What is the underlying question you are driving at? What is it you would ultimately like to know?

It's funny -- I just knew when you sent this question to CS that they'd ask something like this.

Isn't the only time that it'd matter whether or not it was an "attack" make a difference was under the weird interpretation that guy had of minion rules, where the reminder text for a rule superceded the rule itself in his opinion?

I would expect any questions to CS about 4e that deal with legalistic type issues to give the right answer about 50% of the time. They're the D&D version of the Betty Crocker help line -- they're there to help you make sure your brownies don't burn, not to explain how to make a wedding cake.

 

[zgrose]

... but very different to what he said.

No, he's unaffected by attacks. Attacks do all sorts of things other than damage; what I want to know is what counts as an attack.

CustServ's answer to me wasn't "powers that require an attack roll", or "powers that have an attack, hit, or miss line". CustServ's answer to me was "attack powers".

-Hyp.

Well, what power do you believe is an Attack that isn't a [Class] Attack?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Isn't the only time that it'd matter whether or not it was an "attack" make a difference was under the weird interpretation that guy had of minion rules, where the reminder text for a rule superceded the rule itself in his opinion?

Consider Elemental Maw vs Evasion.

Elemental Maw is an Area power, Int vs Reflex, which deals damage on a hit, half damage on a miss, and has an effect that deals damage.

Evasion says that if you're missed by an attack that deals damage on a miss, you take no damage from the attack.

If 'the attack' is Elemental Maw, then if you're missed by the Int vs Reflex attack roll, you take no damage from Elemental Maw - that is, you don't take the half damage on a miss, and you don't take damage from the Effect.

If 'the attack' is the Attack: Hit: Miss component of Elemental Maw, then if you're missed by the Int vs Reflex attack roll, you take no damage from the Attack: Hit: Miss component of Elemental Maw, but you're still subject to damage from the Effect.

It's essentially the same argument as the Cloud of Daggers vs Minions, but without the "That's just reminder text!" red herring.

Now, based on CustServ's reply, if Wall of Fire is an attack, then Elemental Maw is an attack, and the missed Evader will take no damage from the Maw's Effect.

If 'an attack' requires a roll, then Elemental Maw includes an attack which is separate from the Effect, and Evasion will provide no protection against the Effect, and in addition, Cody was wrong.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, what power do you believe is an Attack that isn't a [Class] Attack?

That's not the real issue. The real issue is "What powers that are [Class] Attacks do you believe are not Attacks?"

The answer, for one camp, is "A power is not an attack; a power which has an Attack: Hit: Miss component includes one or more attacks."

-Hyp.

 

[zgrose]

That's not the real issue. The real issue is "What powers that are [Class] Attacks do you believe are not Attacks?"

And which [Class] Attacks do you believe are not Attacks? Just a single power will do for now.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And which [Class] Attacks do you believe are not Attacks? Just a single power will do for now.

There is an interpretation which says that, to use the standard example, Wall of Fire (Wizard Attack 9) is an Attack Power, but that there is no attack associated with the use of the power, since there is no attack roll.

Someone subject to the Effect of a Wall of Fire, therefore, has not been attacked, nor have they been affected by an attack, since no attack roll was ever made against them.

-Hyp.

 

[zgrose]

There is an interpretation which says that, to use the standard example, Wall of Fire (Wizard Attack 9) is an Attack Power, but that there is no attack associated with the use of the power, since there is no attack roll.

Someone subject to the Effect of a Wall of Fire, therefore, has not been attacked, nor have they been affected by an attack, since no attack roll was ever made against them.

-Hyp.

Well, it says [Class] Attack. It can deal damage. And CSR said it was an attack. It seems pretty straightforward and internally consistent, no? That is, the caster isn't attacking you, but the wall is. That's why it deals damage and doesn't use your ability mods.

(more edit) I think if there was a [Class] Utility that dealt damage either directly or indirectly, that would be more interesting situation.