Anyone else wonder why they didn't combine the 3.5 spell system and the 4th edition..

[ProfessorCirno]

I'm going to try and stay out of this already getting messy argument as it is, but Psion is far from the only one who ran awesome 3.5 games wherein the wizard or CoDzilla didn't rule the roost. I also like the idea of "What, your wizards didn't TRY to take over all the other people's spots with ill conceived spells from other books that you banned? Man, they must suck."

And by "like" I mean "find laughably absurd."

 

[Psion]

So the fighters get to strut their stuff 'when the wizard was tapped out'?

I think that says it all about whether your personal experience found that warrior types were of equal efficacy to wizard types. The warrior types were the second string, only getting to strut their stuff when the first string wizard was either tired or conserving himself for something important.

Note the language used there too. The 'Warriors' (plural) got to shine when the 'wizard' (singular) was tapped out. Evidently the Wizard was the single most important member, once he was tired, multiple party members had to step up to fill the void.

I don't get, and don't agree with, your negative attitude about endurance as a trade off. You obviously subscribe to it, but obviously my players don't agree. Wizards can do some cool stuff, but the warrior players I've played with relish in dishing out the continuous damage stream round after round after the wizard is down to hurling nuissance spells 2 or 3 levels below his highest.

Seriously dude, a wizard player who swears when he can't overcome SR is a wizard player who is a bit dim...

As is wizard who would blithely dismiss the likes of prismatic spray and horrid wilting as invalid spell choices. Sure, you'd be wise to pick some spells that let you deal with SR-encumbered creatures as well, but we get back to the balancing point of the wizard: you have a limited amount of spell slots, and the time will come when you won't have the spell you need handy.

 

[OneWinged4ngel]

I love what 4th edition did for the melee classes. Creative, interesting, and made melee classes much more fun to play.

For the record, I'd like to point out that I think the mechanics we saw in ToB were working towards doing this *even better* than in 4e. I feel that 4e is actually something of a watered down offerring on the improvements we were seeing the foundations of in that system.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

For the record, I'd like to point out that I think the mechanics we saw in ToB were working towards doing this *even better* than in 4e. I feel that 4e is actually something of a watered down offerring on the improvements we were seeing the foundations of in that system.

That would be my opinion as well. ToB gave, amongst many other things, LOTS of more choices.

 

[OneWinged4ngel]

That would be my opinion as well. ToB gave, amongst many other things, LOTS of more choices.

A lot of the extra choices it provided didn't just stem from, say, its ability lists. It stemmed from its emphasis on avoiding breaking points and maintaining even progressions and opening up the viability of multiclassing at far more points, along with things like "Martial Study." Heck, Martial Study *is* the extent of 4e multiclassing on its own. It's also fairly notable that implementing a refresh system like ToB (or indeed, WoW. For all that a lot of things seem to be taken directly from WoW, they seem to have forgotten a lot of the best things they could take from it) would do a good deal towards fixing the "padded sumo" BS 4e suffers from.

Anyways, a big part of what we're doing with our new system is "ToB-ifying" all of the classes. It already seems to be working a lot better than 4e. Honestly, seeing how much they had done towards this more versatile system, it gives me the impression that they did a 180 turn halfway through development and said "hey, if we continue down this ToB/SAGA road, we'll actually make something with the versatility of a classless system and the benefits of a class system. But if we have such great versatility that you can already make every odd gish and combo with just a few small classes and a good, solid discipline list actually constituting *different abilities* (rather than scaling or slightly altering similar abilities), it seems like we'd have less options to sell in future supplements." Naaah, they wouldn't do that. Just like they wouldn't split up classic, popular monsters amongst more MMs in order to increases the effective "cost" of these monsters rather than trying to make later MMs more attractive in the content department. I mean, that would just be silly and abusive of their brand loyalty advantage. WotC would never do anything like *that.*

 

[DandD]

Yep, that it does say. My point was, don't assume that someone who can detect magic and knows what the spell is can't make life miserable for you... build a ladder up to the entrance (or use flying if it has it), build a fire in the room and fill it with choking smoke, leave traps for you, etc.

And how is someone going to know that there is a "rope trick" above somewhere in a room, seeing as it's invisible? Also, if the gm is trying such lazy tactics, arbitrarily deciding that somehow, the diviner finds out where the pocket dimension is situated, the players will simply use guards next time, looking out of the invisible window.
That spell ist too good and should be around 6 spell level or so. Of course, don't start with the big daddy of all instant-pocket-dimensions... Mordenkainen/Mage's Magnificent Mansion

Eliminating that spell does more good than bad. However, the problem concerning the 15-minutes worktime still remain, and the players will just be a little bit more annoyed if their characters can't rest at all.

 

[Psion]

And how is someone going to know that there is a "rope trick" above somewhere in a room, seeing as it's invisible?

Anyone with level 2 spells and a few ranks in knowledge(arcana) is going to know what rope trick is.

Adventurers in the area that suddenly disappeared and not seen exiting the complex... detecting magic for signs of the casting of such a spell are in order.

Also, if the gm is trying such lazy tactics, arbitrarily deciding

You say arbitrary. I say logical.

That spell ist too good

You'll note I've already said this. But it's my habit to try to work with a rule before house ruling it.

Eliminating that spell does more good than bad. However, the problem concerning the 15-minutes worktime still remain, and the players will just be a little bit more annoyed if their characters can't rest at all.

I hear people say this, but have never seen it be a problem in my game. Indeed, the games where I tip the players back on their heels are usually the ones that they bring up again and again as great battles. That being the case, this is just another one of those things like alignment arguments that I hear about on the internet that I don't really concern myself with until I see it crop up. I'm afraid that the 15-minute day thing is less universal a syndrome than you portray as (again) it is likely a result of player and GM mentality.

 

[drothgery]

That would be my opinion as well. ToB gave, amongst many other things, LOTS of more choices.

I'm shocked, shocked that there were more options in 160 pages about 4 classes that didn't have to cover anything else than 320 pages about 8 classes that also has include info on races, equipment, and the core system mechanics....

 

[Arawn76]

Tome of magic whilst a good book quickly overshadows the core class options.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I'm shocked, shocked that there were more options in 160 pages about 4 classes that didn't have to cover anything else than 320 pages about 8 classes that also has include info on races, equipment, and the core system mechanics....

It has less to do with book space and more to do with the Powers system.